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INTRO (00:08):
This is the happy scientist podcast. Each episode is designed to make you more focused, more productive, and more satisfied in the lab. You can find us online at bitesizebio.com/happyscientist. Your hosts are Kenneth Vogt, founder of the executive coaching from Vera Claritas and Dr. Nick Oswald, PhD bio-scientist and founder of bitesizebio.

Nick Oswald (00:39):
Hello and welcome to the happy scientist podcast from bitesizebio. If you want to become a happier, healthier, and more productive scientist, you are in the right place. I'm Nick Oswald the founder of bitesizebio.com and with me is the driving force of this podcast, Mr. Kenneth Vogt, I've worked with Ken for over seven years now with him as my business mentor and colleague, I knew that his expertise could help a lot of researchers. Along the way I'll pitch in with points from my personal experiences as a scientist, but mostly we'll hear from Ken on principles that will help shape you for a happier and more successful career. Today, we will be discussing how to elicit the help of others. So let's bring in the man himself, Kene how's things going for you today?

Kenneth Vogt (01:21):
Going great. How are you? Good. So last week we talked about going your own way. And here we are this week talking about eliciting, help from others. So you gotta wonder did last week not count. And so allow me to say, then that going your own way was not about going you're going alone. It was about being a leader and about being free to choose your own path. But once you've chosen that path, once you decided to lead in a certain direction, you're going to need help. If you really want to get things done. And it's, this is not to say that young you're not enough, or, or there isn't, you know, there isn't any way to do things on your own. Yes, there is, but you have the opportunity to get help and you can multiply what you can accomplish.

(02:19):
If you can have the assistance of other people. And, and that assistance can come from all kinds of directions, it can come from people who are working for you, and basically, you know, they have to help you. That's what they're being paid to do, or it can come from your peers who may not have to directly have to help you, but it's in their best interest to be a team player, or it can come from the people that you work for because you need the support of those who have access to the resources or have their have their hands on the purse strings. And you can also elicit help from that or people that are outside of your normal chain. Just there's plenty of people out that are willing to help and capable of helping or are are personally motivated to help. And it just comes down to you.

(03:07):
Well, whether or not you will, you will collect those resources and bring them in to help you get done, what you gotta do. So, you know, if you've bothered to have any kind of vision at all about what you want to get done, and you're excited about it, you're going to realize I don't want to stop it only using my own strength or my own energy to get this done. I'm going to want to pull in every possible resource I can to make, make this successful, to make this bigger, to make this better. You know, however, you're, you're approaching it. It's, you're going to be excited to bring in other people. So the problem you may have is you may look back and go, you know, there've been times when people have helped me, but there have been times when I really, really, really needed help and I just didn't get it.

(03:58):
Or maybe you're someone has said, you know, I've rarely get helped by anybody. Nobody wants to help me. I don't know what the problem is. You know, what's wrong with these people. I need help. For others of you, you'll say, well, you know, actually I do like getting help from other people. It's just, I don't always get to help. I need, it's like I see people willing to help with the, they don't do what I need or I'm not getting the right help. I, there are people that are helping me, but I need help from other people. So we're gonna, we're gonna deconstruct all of that and, and look at how you can elicit help from people no matter what they are, because sometimes we may be intimidated when we think I can't, I can't ask my boss's boss for help, or I can't ask this very busy peer of mine for help, or I'm already working my, you know, my direct reports to the bone. I just can't ask for any more from them. So we're going to, we're going to get clear about how this all works. Cause, cause there's, there's plenty of opportunity. There's a lot of low-hanging fruit out there. So no matter what state you're in you, there's more you can do.

Nick Oswald (05:07):
Would it be fair to say that there are people there will be people out there who don't either don't want to ask for help or don't kind of realize how much that I've helped have a helpful strategy. That is

Kenneth Vogt (05:19):
Absolutely. And you know, if you already are of the mindset, I mean, I hate asking for help that that's something to examine about yourself. Like, why am I so resistant to being the social animal that I am as a human being? Cause it's not, frankly, it's not natural. It is normal for us to seek help. And if, if you feel like you're an outsider in that regard, it's time to do a little self examination and a little assessment. Like, why am I, why don't I want to ask for help? Am I afraid to give up a credit? Am I, do I feel embarrassed or ashamed, but I feel unworthy, you know, examine those things for yourself and, and, and get clear that you have asked for help in your life at some point, and maybe you've asked for help and been denied it. And so now you don't want, wanna, you don't want to have that experience again, but it's good to get some experience with that.

(06:14):
Where, where you ask for help in simple situations where, where, you know, there's, you don't really have any skin in the game. And if people say, no, it won't hurt. And, and you you'll be surprised. It's the little things asking somebody to hold the door, asking somebody to pass the sugar. You know, the people will do stuff. They will do stuff, even if they don't care about you. Cause cause it's part of their social structure too. They realize they got to give back to the group. So give people a chance to do that. You know, there's a, there's an adage that says there's more joy in giving than there is in receiving. So don't deny people, the joy of giving, give them, give them a chance to give. And, and you'll find that they're going to, they're going to generally want to,

Nick Oswald (07:00):
I think there's a, there's also an adige I can't remember the exact quote, but something like you should always surround yourself with people who are better at doing better than you at doing the things that need done. So you have your, you have your revision. And so say it's in your research project and you need to do some microscopy and you're, you're okay at my microscopy, but you have, you know, someone who is, who is better get their help. And in that, we'll move it along faster. And that's in everyone's best interests. It's in their interests because they get the joy of going back then you were them as well. But also it means that your research project moves along faster, which is better for everyone. And you know, I, from personal experience, the reason Ken is here is this very principle on this podcast because I, you know, I started a bitesizebio as a scientist writing stuff about science got so far, and then I just hit a wall. I didn't know what to do next about making it into a business that could that could sustain itself and that, and so I looked for someone who was better at that than me. And that's where you, that's where you came in, came.

Kenneth Vogt (08:05):
Sure. And, and hearkening back to when this began here with Nick, Nick was pretty sensitive about, about asking for this help. He wasn't real comfortable with it and you know, so I had to, I had to make sure that I, I made it comfortable for him to be able to ask, no, no, you're on, you know, we're discussing this from the other side right now. People may not always make it easy for you, but it's, it's something to keep in mind that it's so important to do if, and by the way, when people ask you for help help them. But we're going to get into that a little bit later. So, so, so hang in there. Now let's talk about why people would help you.

Nick Oswald (08:50):
Can I just say one thing before we jumped into that, Ken, and that's about I said that I, you know, it's about realizing that you need help because for me, I think I want a better focus on that because that was a thing for me. And I said that, you know, I was running bitesizebio and I hit a wall with with what I was able to a ceiling. And that's when I got you involved. But the reason I got you involved was because I literally hit the wall very hard and it took that pain to make me realize you realize, you know, in terms of stress and, and and so on that I was causing myself by trying to do it all myself and doing something that I wasn't really best suited for myself or that I wasn't experienced enough with myself. And it took the pain of trying to do that and then hitting the wall mentally to realize that I needed help. And so I would, that's why I think this is a really important topic because part of it is not just about how to get the help as, as the title suggests is to realize, to put that in your own working practices, that you look around for solutions other than you, and you build a network of people who can help you to ultimately get where you want to go faster.

Kenneth Vogt (10:05):
Sure. Yeah. Come start a humility, you know, being to ask for help. I mean, we've talked about that. And a couple of past episodes, we talked about it in the siren song of control episode 23, we talked about it in the power of gratitude and episode 26. So hopefully you've already internalized that stuff and you realize, okay, I am going to ask for help when I need help, because it's, it's just the right thing to do. And it's the thing that works too. This is, this is a very pragmatic thing to do. So speaking of pragmatism, let's talk about pragmatism from those who might help us and how, how it is. We could, we could interest them in helping us. And, and it's, it's quite simple to think about it. It's like what's in it for them. What's their self-interest in this and not your self-interest, you're probably pretty clear on your self-interest, but get clear on their self-interest think about what would they gain if they helped me.

(11:12):
And, and if you can't come up with anything, well, then you better build some gains into your requests and, and think about, think about it this way, too. These are requests. Request aren't always granted. So you gotta make your request for assistance enticing enough. And you think, well, you know, for the people that work for me, they have to do what I tell them to do. Yeah, that's true. But they only have to do it to the level that the box gets checked, that they, that they did what they were told. They don't have to do a great job. They don't have to do what you really need. They just have to be able to say they did something. So you gotta it in their self-interest to do the thing you really want done.

(11:58):
And there's always something for somebody to gain in, in helping someone else. And it could be, you know, it could be direct things like, like say somebody is working for you. Well, you know, they're going to get paid so that th they're going to keep their job. This is great. Your peers, that that's not the same, you know, they don't, they don't have that. Your boss doesn't have that, but they have different things. So with your peers, it may be, it's an opportunity for them to get credit for something. So you can share the limelight with them, or even you can even get it entirely to them, let them be the winner of, of credit in a certain case. Cause it gets you something that you want, you know, obviously make sure that the trade-offs are worth it for you, but you're going to find plenty of times that getting credit all the time, yourself, isn't actually all that valuable giving away credit.

(12:48):
Sometimes it's a really powerful thing and it's a very motivating thing to other people. And if they can get some credit, they may be willing to give you far more help than, than you might even ask for. Another thing you can offer people is protection. So, you know, you can imagine there, there are situations that are political. There are situations that are now, I mean, internal office politics, you know there are situations where somebody needs to be able to demonstrate that they're being a valuable member of the team and you're giving them an opportunity to be able to have that and to get some protection for themselves that keeps them on a project that keeps them in their jobs. It keeps the grant open, you know, whatever it is that's that's going on. So if you can find a way to help people get protection from helping you, you, then you're more likely to get that help.

(13:44):
And then finally, in any case, no matter what they do is, Hey, I owe you one they're there, they are pocketing some future benefit that, that perhaps they can get help from you in the future on something. And the help might be something that takes your time. But sometimes it's just a matter of you'll share your influence or you will lend your credibility to something in the future. So, I mean, you might be able to get something that gets where you get a lot of time from somebody. And all you're going to have to do is share some of your reputation in the future. And you know, you can weigh that. Obviously there's some people you don't, you know, I don't want to, I don't want to be a reference for certain people, but there are other people that I know I'm going to always be comfortable being referenced from them.

(14:31):
So I know that that allowing them to bank that future benefit is, is a good deal for me. So if you really consider that the self-interest of the individual that you're asking for, for help from, you may find that you have a lot more, more power to get them to help you and is true. Whether there's a subordinate or a peer or your boss or your boss's boss, you know, or somebody outside of, of your, you know, your chain of command, everybody's got self-interests, it's not that hard to figure out what they are. You just have to bother to, you know, walk a mile in their moccasins and go, well, what would this person need? What would, what would be valuable to them? I pause for a moment to see if Nick wanted to add,

Nick Oswald (15:24):
I was going to start seeing something. That's probably why he had, but then I thought that maybe you're about to go onto it, but I guess that you're talking about here, you know, when you're, when you're looking at their self-interest, you're looking at where you're starting from zero currency, if you like you haven't prepared. Well, I can see you're going to talk about that from the notes. You haven't put that. All right. Okay. I'll let you carry on. I'm just going to see what you were going to say, I think.

Kenneth Vogt (15:50):
All right. So I want to introduce a concept here about, about what we're doing here of transactions. You know, sometimes I want to differentiate transactions from giving. You might think I'm asking people to give to me and by giving is expensive. You know, it's just expensive for transactions are not expensive. Transactions are of equal value or in most cases, a good quality transaction, both sides feel like they're getting more than they're giving. And so the difference between transactions and giving giving is that it's it's just a one, one side of the thing, non dual thing. It isn't, it doesn't have another side. I just give, cause I want to give, and if you're asking somebody to just give to you with no particular, trade-off no return it's, it can be harder to sell that to get somebody interested in that. But transactions, we do transactions all day, every day, you know, from as simple as it was worth that five bucks to get that latte and, you know, and have somebody else make it for me.

(17:04):
And of course other people look at that transaction go $5 for a cup of coffee. That's nuts. I've never do that. Well, okay, fine transactions have to make sense for the people involved in the transaction, but they don't have to make sense to anybody else. So, you know, depending on who you're dealing with, some people are going to need X to help, you know, to be willing, to help you and other people are gonna need Y and then there may not even be any crossover with certain individuals, other people it's like, you know, I've got this universal thing. Everybody's gonna want this. And then here's a special thing. That's going to be appealing to some people. So you'll take a look at what you have available to trade and, you know, cause that's all, this is it's it's just a transaction. I need some help.

(17:49):
I'm willing to give extra for that help and make sure you're willing. You know, it's gotta be, it's gotta be worthwhile to you too. So giving thought to a transaction means giving thought to what they find valuable and giving thought to what you find to be valuable. And you do that. There are situations, you know, I don't know. I don't know if we've talked about this before or not. We may have about, about giving where we just give in a, in a totally non-dualistic fashion without any consideration to another side of this, purely for the joy of giving. But this is not one of those situations. We're not asking people for that. It's kind of an altruistic thing to ask. And you know, granted, there are people in our circles. Sometimes that altruism is part of their nature and they are getting something out of that. They get virtue out of that. They get to feel like they're a good person. And that's something that they care about. Right? All right, fine.

(18:47):
What we want to do here though, is not manipulate people and not take advantage of people. And the reason we don't want to do that, isn't because you can't get a result that way. Cause you definitely can get a result that way. The problem is the cost is too high. At some point you start to get a reputation for being someone who takes advantage of other people. That that is extremely expensive. So even if you're leaning is to go that way, I want you to take a look at your own self-interest and realize that that reputation you don't want it's it's too costly. So even though you'll want what you want, you know, you gotta, you gotta reign in your inner demons a little there and realize, okay, from in my own best interest, I just can't be, I can't be avoricious about this. I can't be greedy. I gotta, I've got to recognize that other people see my motivations too. You know, we we'd like to think our motivations are all completely hidden, but the fact is most of us are wearing them on our sleeves and everybody knows what we're up to and why we're up to it. So, so just presume people know, what's, what's in the depths of your heart and they know your, your, your, your darkest inclinations and, and operate accordingly.

Nick Oswald (20:00):
It's interesting because what you're talking about here in a wider, more zoomed out sense as creating a flow of good feeling, if you like, you know, so that, you know, when someone gives to you, it feels good for them because they, you know, whether it's just because they know how to give without condition and it feels good to them or because they're getting something back in return or, you know, whatever way it needs to be done is creating a good feeling rather than just forcing what you want to get. Fortunately, what, you know, the outcome you want by, as you say, manipulation or whatever, because then that stops the flow of that. So then it's more difficult to get it next time. That's an interesting way to look at it actually, because it often feels like that manipulation site approach manipulative approach doesn't have a cost, but it does.

(20:56):
Cause it kind of just takes all of the energy out of that transaction, or it's not necessarily a transaction, but it takes all of the energy of that flow of giving. And I think that science in general is quite good. Scientists in general are quite good at realizing that,uthat giving to other people as a, kind of, as a necessity in, in, in a professional sense. Ubut it's also,uyou know, it's also a good thing to do for a kind of networking almost, you know, the more you can give, the more you can get back. I think people are generally quite good at realizing that maybe more than they would be in like more than people would be in kind of day-to-day life. But I think it's quite good to point out these principles of why it's like that and why it's important to,uto maintain that good feeling and good intention so that then you get better and better at it because we all know people who are, you know, really great networkers,uhave a great network of people that they can draw upon and who, you know, they they're giving and receiving all the time.

(22:03):
And you know, those are powerful people.

Kenneth Vogt (22:06):
Exactly. And we all have putting ourselves in the other side of this, we all have people that, you know, if, if Sandy asked me for help, I will drop everything to help. But if Chris asks for help, I'm going to have to do the math first, you know, and it may be the same request, but, but for one person we're more willing, well, we want to be that person. We want to be that person that, that people are going to be most willing to do whatever it is we ask and in any given situation. And you know that, and we'll, we'll talk about that just a second, how to be that person, but Oh, in fact, we'll talk about it. Now. We're going to start off with, how do you be that charming person? Well, you do it with charisma and we all have charisma. Now charisma is a new topic to you as a listener to this podcast. That means you have not listened to some of our foundational podcasts that, that Nick talks about every week. So episodes seven, eight, and nine are talking about charisma factors. And I promise you, you have some, and you want to know which ones they are. So you should go back and listen to those episodes and learn about that.

(23:25):
Now, the only point of having charisma would be, if you have some kind of vision, if you don't have any kind of vision for what you'd like to get done, like we talked about in the last broadcast, then, then why bother applying charisma? But if you have a vision and you have charisma, you can get people to help you to realize your vision and you can get them on board with that vision. And it, you know, it's the kind of thing too, where maybe what you're asking people is hard or it's costly to them. But if, if it's an exciting thing, if it's, if something they're going to find valuable while now you're far more likely to get them on board to help you with it.

Nick Oswald (24:09):
I can give you an example of that actually again, bitesizebio and I didn't realize this is what was happening at the time, but having worked with you and looked through all these charisma factors and all that stuff. One of my main charisma factors is when is that I'm when I'm passionate about something passionate about something. And so I was very passionate about the concept of bitesizebio from the beginning about the idea of creating a place where scientists could share advice and resources that would help each other. And, you know, you know, me, I'm Scottish. If we don't ha we are not, we're not charming in our own, you know, you know, in a kind of in the, in the or persuasive, we don't tend to be that sort of persuasive in the kind of traditional sense, but at what, for me, because I was really passionate about this and that happens to chime with my charisma factor.

(25:01):
And so I was able to get lots of people to help me just for no reason other than they were, they got as excited about bitesizebio as I did when we were starting off. And yeah, so, so, and that was, you know, I didn't have any other content. I couldn't pay people to do it in the beginning. I couldn't, you know, there was, I didn't have the, you know, the classic charms or anything like that, but people got excited about it. So that's what put a lot of the, that's what brought in a lot of the energy that got bitesizebio off the ground,

Kenneth Vogt (25:30):
Right. And different people have different kinds of charisma. You know, I'm obviously an American and one of my charisma factors is I'm commanding. And you know, that probably is pretty obvious from just listening to this podcast. That's just the nature that I have. Well, my being commanding is one of the reasons why we have this podcast I needed help you. You wouldn't be shocked how many people are behind the scenes on this thing. I needed it to get done. And I started telling people I needed it to get done. And they came along, Nick came along and cause that's the other thing I needed access to an audience will Nick has this beautiful audience of, of scientists and, and you know, he recognized there was a great need here. I recognized from my standpoint. So it all came together. There's an in between us, we have a vision too, cause I had a vision about it.

(26:24):
But then Nick has a different vision about it or a complimentary vision about it that that really enhanced it. So know it was good for both of us. So I wanna let's, let's dig into this thing that Nick was alluding to earlier, that, that if you want people to help you, you should have started yesterday. And you know, if you didn't start yesterday, don't worry about it. You can start today. But the idea is prepare the, the ground in advance, make people want to help you. Why do you do that? Well, you know it'd be great if you could travel back in time and, and, and have done things for other people and got them excited about your vision before maybe you can't do that, but you don't, maybe you can, maybe you can look back and realize, you know what, actually I have prepared the ground.

(27:17):
And so all I need to do is remind them of that, remind them that, you know, I remember when I helped you on this. And remember when, when we, we talked about this and we were excited about it well the time has come to do it. So, so I need your help now. So when you, when you do that, that inventory of who of who's helped me in the past, or who have I, who have I encouraged in the past, who have I already made an investment within the past? Well, now maybe it's the time to cash in. Now's the time to go. Okay. I need to remind them of that. And don't be afraid to remind them I helped you before, or I stood by you before, you know, cause they helped. Might've been, I did work for you or the help might've been.

(28:04):
I was, I was standing up standing up for you, in a setting or I, I was, I was waving a flag saying, Hey, Bob, Bob really did great over a year or Sally really did great over there. You know, call those chips in and, you know, understand that if you're calling in chips, you're cashing them in and that's over. So make sure it's worth it. You know, is this the moment to cash in that chip? Sometimes the answer is no. So I'm not going to, I'm going to hold that one back until it really matters, but there are times when, you know, when you are, your back is against the law and boy, you need to save you. You really need some help right now in and it is sure great to have some, some banked Goodwill with other people that you can get them to drop what they're doing to help you in this emergency because they know you've done that for them before, or you set it up in such a way that they believe that you're going to do that for them in the future.

Nick Oswald (29:00):
I guess it goes back to what you were talking about earlier there came there Ken. If you can actually just get your head around the idea of just giving, you know, being that a person that's helpful, regardless of, you know, regardless of whether you get anything back then, if that just becomes a habit, then you bank so much Goodwill there that you will be, you will naturally have a big pool of people that you can draw upon to help you. But then that, you know, it's not even as transactional as that. You can enjoy being a helpful person and, and then enjoy the help from people that comes back to you and, and everyone, it floats everyone's, what's the rising tide floats everyone's boat or something like that floats all boats. So it's as good for everyone because, you know, if you just look at it in science and scientific research in itself, the more people help each other to get up, you know, on how, you know, in a specific technique or whatever, that they're, that they're they're expert , the faster, the learning curve is for all of science.

(30:08):
And again, that's one of the concepts behind bite-size and you know, so what's wrong, you know, what's to, why would you want to play small when that's and kind of ration that the amount of help you're willing to give people in that sense, but also what's in a personal sense as well. I think the, the, the, the, the professional examples, particularly stark, especially for scientists, despite the, the professional kind of value proposition for that, the reason why you'd want to do it. But of course it carries through to to personal life as well.

Kenneth Vogt (30:45):
Yeah. And, you know, I think that scientists, as you put it out in general, there there's a bit of altruism built into the folks that are doing it. You know, I come from an engineering background and we can be just painfully pragmatic and all about efficiency. And, and if you're, if you have that kind of leaning, like I do like doing things now for other people with no known potential payoff in the future how do I do that? I mean, that, that, how did that comes at a cost then? And I'm busy, you know, I do, do I really have time or resources to, to squander in such a way? Well, yeah, you do so. And the way you can do it, even if you're somebody that's, that's got that efficiency hang up and I'll, I'll put myself in that category. Well, it's that, I just, I just take a portion of my time, a portion of my resources and I just allocate them that way.

(31:46):
It's just, that's just built into my personal system. I've got this 5%, this 10% that I'm going to give away, that's just what's going to happen. And so when it's happening, it's like, I'm not bothered by that because I didn't steal it from something else. It was already assigned to that. It was, it was already, I've already put that into the budget, whether it's time-wise or, or resource wise. And so it's an investment I, I expected to make. And there's plenty of other investments I've made in myself, even as an efficiency nut, you know, why do I keep reading books? Why do I go, why do I go to seminars? Well, why did I used to go to seminar as well? Hopefully we'll be back at that again in the future. You know, because it was part of, I realized I needed professional development in my life at all times. It's just part of it. Well, if I bank things for professional development, I can bank things for call it professional altruism that I'm getting. I'm gonna develop my reputation here as a guy that you can count on somebody that will help you. And that's the kind of person other people want to help. So it's in your best interest, I guess,

Nick Oswald (33:00):
That motivation then looking at like a transaction, is that the more that you give, the more that as an investment, the more that you're likely to be able to get back from other people, if you want to look at it that way it's not, it's not time lost. Put it that way in the same way that going to a professional seminar is not time lost.

Kenneth Vogt (33:22):
Yeah. So that's it. So we want you to, to go your own way, but we also want you to get help. Cause, cause I want you to, we want you to be able to multiply your capability. We want you to multiply your results and you're not gonna be able to do that alone. So you gotta bring it. You gotta bring others along with you.

Nick Oswald (33:42):
Yeah. It's, it's kind of that, that the go your own way concept was kind of about being a leader in whatever specific thing you want to, you know, whatever specific journal you want to create or whatever specific thing you want to build. And this is about how to help other people to do that too, to help other people to build whatever they're building, but also get other, get those people to help you as well. So everyone. Yeah.

Kenneth Vogt (34:11):
Yeah. Now that you're going in your own way, get some help go in that way. Yeah. Simple. Yep. That's right. Well, that's about all I've got for now. Nick, how about you?

Nick Oswald (34:21):
That's I think that that's a great topic, especially for science. We know it's all about collaboration in science and so on, but it still gets a bit sticky and a bit transactional. And I think that the more people can realize how much of a virtuous virtuous circle that is, that no matter what, where you look at it, it's a good thing to do. And it's, and it's a profitable thing to do that. You know, th th the more that people can realize that the better off we'll be. So another great topic that you came up with, Ken.

Kenneth Vogt (34:51):
Thank you. And thank you for your additions to it. Yeah. Yeah. You, you definitely brought the flavor of the view from, from the lab.

Nick Oswald (35:00):
That's the idea. So that brings us to the end, and this gives me a good Ken mentioned the charisma factors podcasts it's really, if you haven't looked back at these early episodes that we did that cover the core concepts was one to nine. I would worth going back and seeing, I mean, w what was charisma factors when they were seven, eight and nine? I think seven, eight and nine. Yeah, I though that's a great concept. It just helps you to understand what buttons you can push to get results like we talked about today. Uso go back and listen to those. If you get the, if you get the chance, in fact, just go back and listen to them,uepisodes one to nine. Uand then if you want to,uto hook up with us on Facebook, we are at facebook.com/thehappyscientistclub. So please join us there and say hello. And so that's all for today. Thank you again, Ken for another great talk. Thank you. And we'll see you all next time.

OUTRO (36:05):
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