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Intro/Outro (00:08):
This is The Happy Scientist podcast. Each episode is designed to make you more focused, more productive, and more satisfied in the lab. You can find us online at Bitesizebio.com/happy scientist. Your hosts are Kenneth Vogt, founder of the executive coaching firm Vera Claritas and Dr. Nick Oswald, PhD bioscientist and founder of Bitesize Bio.

Nick Oswald (00:38):
Hello and welcome to the happy scientist podcast from Bitesize Bio. If you want to become a happier, healthier, and more productive scientist, you're in the right place. I am Nick Oswald the founder of Bitesize Bio.com, where we provide bio-science researchers with help with improving their technical skills, their soft skills and their wellbeing. And in this podcast, we'll be focusing on the latter of these three areas, with me, the driving force of this podcast is Kenneth Vogt. I've worked with Kenneth, Ken for over seven years now with him being my business mentor and colleague. And I knew that his expertise could help a lot of researchers in these sessions. We will hear mostly from Ken on principles that will shape you for a happier and more successful career along the way. I'll pitch in with points from my personal experiences as a scientist and from working with Ken. So let's bring in the man himself. Ken, how are things for you today?

Kenneth Vogt (01:30):
Doing great, Nick, thanks for having me. So we're going to be finishing up our third session. The six human needs, you must satisfy to be productive and happy. And you may recall that we've covered two per session in the last two sessions. We're gonna, we're gonna get the last two to round it up to six. And just to remind you what this is all about, the human animal has its needs. And so while we're all different as individuals, we still have the same basic mix of needs. Everybody has them. Everybody has to satisfy them. And if you don't satisfy them, you're going to have problems. However, if you do satisfy them, you can really accomplish a great deal and you can be very, very satisfied, in your job and your career. You can find a totally different experience just by making sure that these human needs are met.

Nick Oswald (02:26):
And another way to look at that is that if you are having a problem is because you're not satisfying all of these needs. So again, that's another, this is another way to one of Ken's many ways to help you to address what's happening in your life and understand it and tackle it.

Kenneth Vogt (02:43):
Sure. And of course, since your fellows are also humans, the people that you're dealing with every day, the people you work with, the people who you work for, the people that work for you and everybody else in your world, they have the same needs too. So you're going to start to see patterns out there in the world and you'll recognize where things are going wrong for people and where things are going right for them and how you can, how you can implement things to make things better for people. And it isn't just about being altruistic. It can, it's just a matter of recognizing that, Hey, if something is not working for this other person, is it likely will get on me too. So if the, if the barista's having a bad day, you're going to get up, you're going to get a bad latte. So if there's something that you can do about that, it can be very much in your, in your own interests.

(03:36):
But then of course, obviously you can spread the love out to the rest of the world and people won't know why, but they'll just like you more because you're bringing the joy to them all the time, just because you're seeing the patterns here that everybody goes through. So I'll remind you then about how these six human needs work. There are basically three concentric circles of needs. When you start with the personal needs, things that are just about you. And within that category, there's an inward focus and an outward focus. So when we were looking at your personal needs with an inward focus, we said, there is certainty. Everybody needs certainty. It's the need for reliability, safety, and comfort, which we talked about extensively in the first session. And then of course, if you take your personal context and you look outward next, you get to variety. That is the need for physical, mental, and emotional stimulation. Now, if we move the context out to one circle out, we get to a group context. And now we're talking about you coupled with the people you're closest to. Now that might be family members or friends or the people you work with most closely. And if you have an inward focus in that context, the thing that matters is significance. That is the need to feel special, important, and attention worthy.

(05:12):
If we take that group context and turn it outward, well, now we're looking for love and connection. That is the need for love of family and friends, to be connected to people, events and things. So significance and love and connection. We talked about that in the last session, but now there's one more ring to move out. That is the universal context. That is you coupled with anyone you might encounter in the whole world. You know, not just the people you're closest to. And again, we're going to find there's a, there's an inward focus and there's an outward focus. And as we've gone out in these concentric circles from personal to group to universal, they get stronger and more powerful and more more sophisticated you might say so while everyone has all of these, as people grow and as they learn, and as they gain experience, they tend to put their focus more farther out as they go.

(06:20):
And you might think as, as we've talked about these things, if you felt like, man, I just have this aching need for certainty. Does that mean I've gone back to being childish? Like no, no something probably happened in your world where certainty was taken away and you want to fill that need because everybody has them all. But still you're going to find, as, as you grow, you're going to tend to move outward on this with, with forays back in on occasion. Now some of you have been listening to these things and thought certainty, variety, significance, connection. Yeah, those are all fine, but I haven't really felt my sweet spot yet. I haven't felt that thing that just gets me out of bed in the morning. That thing that is feeding my purpose in life yet, you're about to hear them. That's, that's what this universal context is going to be about. So if we're in a universal context and we're looking inward, the human need that you're going to be looking at is for growth. That is the need to learn, develop, and expand.

(07:31):
And you probably met that somewhere. You know, you, you didn't meet that as a small child. When you first got focused on growth, it was probably in school. When you started to realize I can excel at this, I can really expand who I am. I can really learn a great deal and, learning becomes a joy and you become a sponge and it's just, you just can't get enough. You know, I want more, I want more, I want more, I want, I want to change my thinking and all this I want. And I want my context to change so that I can grasp everything. And of course, if you have that, that desire deeply honed, you can learn a great deal. And it's a good thing because you know, in the scientific field, there's a lot to learn and you really can't get to that level.

(08:22):
If you don't, if you don't focus on filling this need for growth, and it's not necessarily in terms of just academic things, you may feel a need. I need to grow in reference to interpersonal relationships. You know, I need to grow socially. I need to understand, I need to understand how people think I need to understand what group context is all about. I need to understand the dynamics of the, of the corporate. I need to understand how to fulfill how to fulfill the group, the group need, if we put it that way. And when at a certain point in your life, when you're just worried about things like, like certainty and variety, it's like, yeah, you know, that's, that's pretty complex, but when complexity becomes a natural and normal part of your world, this notion of growth becomes more and more important.

Nick Oswald (09:26):
And so it's, I would say, Ken, it's not kind of exclusive, there was, it's not that you only start thinking about growth once you're once certainty and variety are are, you know, that buckets full for you? Just that the there'll be become more emphasis on it. I would guess. One way, I mean, one way I would look at that the, about being open to growth is just being open to improve yourself. And, and you can, you can look around you and you can see people who don't try to improve either any areas of the life or certain areas of the life versus the people who actively try to improve their improve in different areas. But I guess that what you're seeing here is that as those more basic needs become fulfilled, then the emphasis moves towards towards growth more and more. And so you grow more and more quickly, is that right?

Kenneth Vogt (10:34):
Exactly. It's kind of like the Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. You know, it's hard to worry about self actualization when you're starving, you know, when you're cold and you're in danger. So, you know, we're gonna, we're going to look at the more basic things first, but once those are satisfied, you're going to realize I'm still, I still have more than I need. And when you get to this level, growth is what's coming next.

Nick Oswald (10:59):
And so would it be fair to say that if you, you know, when you see these people who look like they are just flying and they can do no wrong and so on, is it perhaps because they've allowed themselves more space for growth because of they've addressed these more basic needs.

Kenneth Vogt (11:15):
Exactly. If you're already feeling satisfied and you've got enough ground under your feet to feel certain, and you got enough going on that you have variety and you have people that are making you feel significant and you're feeling connected to folks when that stuff's taken care of. Now, now you've got room for this. Now, now you can, you can start to spread your wings a bit more.

Nick Oswald (11:37):
So if you're if you're looking at this in terms of growth, you know, I would love to be able to do that, but I can't then, then I don't, it feels out of my reach rather then the step, the first step would not be to try and force yourself into more growth is to step back and take a look at those more basic needs and then allow the growth later.

Kenneth Vogt (11:58):
Yeah, so you can imagine a situation where you're, let's go back to harken back to university and you're, you're struggling with, with a new class. And I mean, it's really a class that's really stretching you as you're going to have to grow it and get into it, but then you realize, well, you know, first I gotta, I gotta make peace with my girlfriend. We've been having trouble. So yeah, exactly. That's what's going on in our first, I've got to first, I got get to get my, my housing secured because it's, it's up in the air. Yeah, yeah. You will not, you will have trouble growing, even if you're desirous to grow when you have these other needs that are, you know, that are remaining unfulfilled.

Nick Oswald (12:43):
Yeah. That's interesting because I am going to hate myself for saying this because as you know, I, I like don't really like routine and things like that, but this is where, you know, routine brings certainty. Routine can bring variety if you put variety in the routine and things and make sure you get on a systematic level, but that's where things like real self discipline or growing real self discipline then allows you to have the room to focus on growth.

Kenneth Vogt (13:13):
Sure. Yeah. And you know, the, the outcome of growth is, is really fantastic. You, it's not just that you learn more. I mean, that's, that's really the simplistic part of it. You become more mindful. You become more aware what as you're growing. And that is a tremendous thing. And I thought that was kind of a woowoo concept until one day I was listening to, Ira Flatow on Science Friday on NPR, and he launched into this thing on mindfulness. And how it had become all the rage among the intelligencia in the scientific community and thought, well, isn't that interesting? And, and it makes sense because talk about a business where, where your mind really matters. Well, you know, mindfulness is going to, you're going to have great opportunity there. That's where those Eureka moments come from when you are just completely in the moment you're focused, you're in it.

(14:20):
And then something expansive happens and your whole world changes. An analogy I like to use is, is that we live our lives as, as if we are contained within concentric crystal spheres. So imagine you're in, in these concentric crystal spheres, you can only see the one that you can touch the ones outside of that, everything they're there, crystal spheres, they're seethrough. You can't see them, but if you break out of the one you're in now and expand out to the next one, well, now your whole world just got bigger and that's the, that's the beauty of growth. And, you know, it can be growth in a technical sense and that you can just become more erudite about something that you're working with, but, you know, growth can take on many, many, many forms. So it's, you don't have to just measure yourself by how, how well you did on the test as it were.

Nick Oswald (15:23):
And in fact, if you do that, then you're missing out on so much more growth.

Kenneth Vogt (15:26):
Yeah, indeed.

Nick Oswald (15:28):
If you're just focusing on one aspect of yourself, literally as growth in every direction, any, any barriers you feel for yourself, any inhibitions, any areas of lack of knowledge or experience it's anything goes

Kenneth Vogt (15:45):
Exactly. And it's about making connections too, because just if you know, fact A and fact B that's great. But if you realize there's a relationship between fact A and fact B, now we've gone beyond just knowledge. Now we're moving into wisdom where you're starting to make connections between things, and you're starting to see application. And of course, again, in the scientific field, I know that a lot of you are doing basic research, but there's still application even at that level. And, and as we move out from there, application becomes the main point. So being able to do that, to have that kind of growth is going to, it's going to expand your career. It's going to expand your usefulness in the lab, your usefulness, to your coworkers, and your boss and to your company.

Nick Oswald (16:40):
Even on a very practical level in the job of being a scientist, it's possible to be closed in to not allow. It's not possible. It's common to be closed in certain areas and to to not allow yourself growth. For example, you go into the, and just correct me if I'm going off the track here, Ken. But if you go into the lab and you, you consider yourself as a very good at techniques, for example, good at picking up techniques and doing the practical stuff. But you consider yourself as not very good at being organized, for example, but if you close yourself off and just assume that you're not organized and you don't try and grow in that area, you don't try and work at that to grow that muscle. Then you're missing out on so much because those that the technical ability and the organizational ability, just to give two examples, those feed into each other and make you more rounded. And actually a calmer person, for example, because you're not scrambling around and makes you better at your job and just spirals everything upwards.

Kenneth Vogt (17:40):
Sure. That's, that's an excellent application of this. And it, it points to something that, that from those of us, from the outside in, when we look at you scientists, and we think scientist is a scientist, but you of course recognize while there's a vast difference between a biologist and a chemist. Whereas for the average layman, they may think that's all the same language, but you know that you have to work at that. You know, if you're a biologist, you still need to know some chemistry. If you're a chemist, you sure would be benefited by knowing some biology. So you have to, sometimes you have to work at that growth. It isn't just that, Oh, this is the calling of my soul to learn this. So it's like, no, I better know this because it's going to be important. And so we take on that, that more adult form of seeking our needs, not just seeking our, our selfish, basic, you know, childlike needs, but realizing that I have needs as an adult, that I'm going to have to satisfy.

(18:43):
Yup. It's something you just said to Nick that made me think about how, you know, when you're not meeting your growth needs. And that is if you're feeling worried or anxious, or if you're feeling apathetic about things, there's this, that's just, those are signals that your need for growth are not being met. And, and it's not the automatic place. You'd go. You'd think if my needs for growth aren't being met, I will be frustrated by, by my lack of knowledge or no, it's, it's going to be the, I don't know, it's just, just this underlying. I don't get what's going on here, something is missing

Nick Oswald (19:25):
Or something's not settled. Yeah. Again, I think that example I gave there between someone who doesn't allow themselves to grow in one area that's important, like organizational skills that creates a constant kind of nagging, sort of a doubt that, you know, you always feel like you have to remember where everything is because you didn't put in a system to tell you what everything is, for example. And so that's just a drag because you always feel tense about that. I don't know if that that's exactly what you mean, but that's, to me that that is one example of how you create a drag for yourself by just not addressing, you know, by refusing to grow in in an area, not being open, to grow open, to grow in any area.

Kenneth Vogt (20:10):
Right. And it can become egotistical. Like, you know, I shouldn't have to be this organized, you know, I should be able to hold all this in my head, you gotta get over that. Sometimes you get, you just have to recognize that you've, you've hit a limit somewhere. And it doesn't matter if you're thinking other people can hold it all in their head. Why can't I, if you can't, if you can't, don't worry about it, develop a system that will solve that problem for you. We all have our limitations and we all have our blind sides, and that is the perfect place to look growth, because there are some things that you just have as a natural talent. It was just baked in when, when you arrived. And that's not particularly anything to be proud of. If it's something you're not having to work at big deal, but if you have to work at something just to get to the basic level of competence, now that's something to have some healthy self esteem about. I had to work at being organized, or I had to work at, you know, being more visually aware I had to work at listening harder or whatever it was.

Nick Oswald (21:21):
I had to work at getting that six pack. It's the same principle.

Kenneth Vogt (21:25):
Exactly.

Nick Oswald (21:25):
Well, I dont have a six pack, but just for someone who did

Kenneth Vogt (21:29):
I do, it's under me three, three inches of fat, but yeah, this is, don't be afraid to see that you have weak spots. There, there are things that you can't, that you can't do as easily as others. Fine. The reverse is also true, you know, and again, if you're worried about that, you're thinking about significance.

Nick Oswald (21:57):
So, so I guess one message that's, that's important to get across here is that we're not talking about perfection. It's that that's a pressure you can put yourself under. If you start becoming aware of the areas where you are, you know, you think you could become better and you start forcing it for yourself in that, that in itself drives anxiety. I think what you're talking about here is allowing a natural expansion by just paying attention to things.

Kenneth Vogt (22:23):
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And this goes to point out something too about growth growth can be a very structured and organized thing. You'll like taking a class, but some growth is happening organically and it's just, you just gotta get out of the way and allow it to happen. And you'll see opportunities. And so if you see an opportunity, then take it and recognize when things are working for you and when things are not working for you. And, and we've talked about this in other episodes and we'll talk about it. I'm sure in the future, there are systems out there that are great for certain types of people that would be terrible for another person. So, you know, keep looking for the stuff that will work for you. You know, if you like to, if you need to get things by reading them all by all means read. If you need to hear them well, then get on YouTube and listen to lectures. You know, it, we all have our, if you need to put your hands on things, to learn things, well, then do that, you know, find, find the thing that works for you. And don't worry about it if, Hey, nobody else has to do it this way. So what Tesla did things his own way, Edison did things his own way.

Nick Oswald (23:41):
I mean, one, one thing that occurs to me Ken, as you're talking about this, that a lot of the times what's happening when you are, when you're growing is that you're in a situation where it is actually painful or uncomfortable. And and you have to allow the, for example, you know, for doing a PhD, for example, is a good as a good example because it's, it's a very intense situation for a few years. And but it does bring about a lot of growth forces you to, to be in situations that would be out with your comfort zone. I just said out with that, so a Scottish word that I'm told no one outside Scotland uses. So eh PC forces you to be in situations that aren't within your comfort zone. And and that's why it's a growth experience, but it can also be painful. But being, being aware that when you are being kind of crushed in a situation like that, it's not a bad thing. It's, it's it's actually galvanising and you to move to the next level and not resisting that or avoiding that situation is one of the keys to growth. Is that right?

Kenneth Vogt (24:53):
Exactly. Exactly. I got caught between exactly and excellent that's an American thing. So yeah, it recognizing that you have a need for growth too, is, can be eye opening for people. They might've realized some of these other things like, you know, certainty and variety is pretty obvious. It seems and significance and, and, and connection, but there's, there's something aching something missing. And then you realize, yeah, I'm trying to fill a whole year. Not because anything is wrong because I just want more, I want to see a bigger world. I want to understand more more of what's going on in the world. And that's what growth is all about. Growth is very satisfying in that regard, in that it will, it'll, it'll get you past feeling afraid or feeling alone and feeling uncertain. It there's a, there's a glory in it that, that'll wow.

(25:57):
I just, I just got it. You know, I just got something bigger and now I can, now I see where that horizon is, and I know there's stuff on the other side of that horizon because I've, I've run toward the horizon before and seen it there's more and more. So it becomes a habit. Then it may well be a habit that you developed a long time ago, but you never put, never had a label to put on it. Never, never saw a structure for it. So this is again, the six human needs here are, are just an artifice. They're, they're just a way of looking at this. And these six needs are not the end all be all, but there are pretty good set that will cover almost all of everything you need and give you an answer in any given moment so that you can remember this stuff. And in any situation go when something's not working, okay, let me just hit the list. Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, aha. There's the one, you know you know,

Nick Oswald (26:57):
And so probably a good time to remind people that the the the graphic that we have that covers all of those six human needs and kind of maps them out for you is available on the show notes for this podcast, which you can find bitesizebio.com/podcast. And this is episode three. So you can find the show notes on episode three. And what else was I going to say, we should probably move on to the, to the next human need but I just want to ask one more thing Ken by growth. And that is, what about the role of frustration in this, in that you mentioned about, I think there are plenty of people around to want to see a bigger world or more see more of the world or be more, but they feel frustrated because they can't perceive how to make that step. What would you see there?

Kenneth Vogt (27:48):
Okay. Well, first thing I would say is congratulations on achieving the step of frustration. Does that means you're ready to move? So you've got, now you've got incentive. Now you've got some drive here to do something about it. So that's the first thing. One thing about frustration though, is sometimes it's associated with time and then as I want it now, well, it may not be available just now. You may have to, you may have to be a bit patient, but the thing about frustration, frustration shows that you were, it shows on the positive side that you're desiring something, but on the negative side, it's showing that you're demanding that that reality be different than it is. And you don't get to do that. Reality. Reality is very unforgiving. It is going to be what it's going to be.

Nick Oswald (28:45):
And so that that's, I guess, where the much overused phrase of about be grateful for what you have comes in, I guess. Exactly. Because that gives you a piece of that at the moment. Yeah.

Kenneth Vogt (28:58):
Yeah. Gratitude is, is the perfect solution to frustration. So at any given moment, you're going to have those things where like, I don't have a solution. It's like, okay, well, I'm grateful for what I do have. And I'm grateful for, I have awareness of the problem now, cause that's, that is a leap forward that we often don't give credit to. We, there's always this process where everything is the way it is supposed to be. And then you realize something has to change. And the first part of that is realizing what's wrong. And that's the part we all hate because all we know right now is there's a problem and we have no solutions. And it's the scariest time. But recognizing there's a problem is absolutely required before there can be a solution without recognizing the problem and fully investigating the problem and fully fleshing out the problem, you can't get the solution.

(29:52):
So when you're in that state where something is wrong and you're frustrated, this is your opportunity to take that time, to examine and really get clear, really get clear on a problem. And don't look for solutions yet first, really, truly identify the problem. Once you fully did that one, you're going to feel a little less frustrated because you're going to be clear. It's part of that frustration is fear of the unknown and you're going to have less unknown. So then once you have a clear picture of the problem, then it'll be much easier to, to find solutions. And you'll find your creativity is, is greatly enhanced because you bothered with that step of fully developing the problem.

Nick Oswald (30:35):
I saw a quote from one of the Monty Python guys talking about. I think it was John Cleese. Talking about creativity is, is not a skill it's just about being open. And the way that this is one of the ways you can open up is by moving from into gratitude for what you have relaxes everything. Then you can see solutions much more. Clearly.

Kenneth Vogt (31:00):
John Cleese is one of the great sages of our age, seriously, in so many ways, aside from being hilarious, that man is he's on it. He really is. So we have one more human need. The final one it's in that, that universal context. Now we're going to take our focus and turn it outward. And that is for contribution and contribution is the need to contribute beyond oneself. So it makes sense. This is a natural follower to growth because in growth, you learn a bunch of things. Now that you've learned a bunch of things. Now you want to share them with everybody now that you want to take them out to the world. And I mean, there's so much about science that is about contribution and it is the ultimate. It's the end game that this is the point where whatever we've done, we now have something to benefit everybody else.

(32:01):
To benefit, the world, to benefit mankind. So contribution. Well, we'll do a lot of things for you. It'll make you recognize real satisfaction. It'll give you great confidence because you know, you're making the world a better place. Then there's no more enjoyment than this. And when I say enjoyment, I want to use, or look at the root word of that joy. How often have you associated the word joy with your career and with your job and with science in general, you know, the lab? Well, there's no reason not to. You can actually have all that and it will come from contribution. The, the thing I have observed, you know, I, I work, I've worked with a lot of, of executives over the years and I have a program that they go through and there's some testing that they do to see where they're at on their human needs and which ones are really calling to them.

(33:01):
And I have noticed a pattern of the people that are excelling the most, that their primary need will be contribution. And their secondary need will be growth out of all the six. So, those would be the ones that they hit on the most, and then it'll flip. And you think what happened? They regressed now growth is more important than contribution. Well, no, what happened was they contributed everything they could. And then they realized if I'm going to continue to contribute, I need to grow more. So then the focus back on growing some more for awhile until they've till they've refilled their tank. And then they go back out into contribution mode and the same thing can certainly happen for scientists in the lab. This is, this is really the, where, where you're headed. It's it's, it's what makes all of this work, all of the hard work and all of the, the hard thinking and everything you've had to do gets the payoff here. So one of the things that you look forward to is like, when, how to know you're not hitting the buttons on contribution. Is, are you feeling doubt? Are you feeling timidity? Are you feeling dissatisfaction? Are you finding yourself being negligent and just, you know, just not doing your best, not, not, not taking care of business. Well, that's, that's all signals that you're, you're not paying attention to your need for contribution.

Nick Oswald (34:35):
And so in that case, what should someone do if they feel if someone in that moment says, yeah. Okay. Okay. I'm in a malaise. I'm feeling I'm feeling in a slump and not been taking care of business. What is a step we can take there?

Kenneth Vogt (34:50):
Okay. Well, the first thing I would look for there is again, do that through a fearless inventory of your human needs and say, what's going wrong here. You know, what's, what's missing. Cause it may well be that one of the, one of the lower planks is kind of been kicked out from under you and you can't contribute right now because you're lacking variety. Cause you're bored, stiff. You know, you can't get anywhere or you're having connection problems, you know, there's working relationship problems or, or other things going on. You know, you find that, but you may find you're looking at it going, all of them are there. I've, I've got certainty, I've got variety, you've got significance, I've got connection. I've got growth. And yet I'm dissatisfied here in contribution and it may well just be focus. Maybe now it's time to say, okay, I have tooled up for this.

(35:41):
I have, you know, I've I have prepared for the race. The starting gun is about to fire. It's time for me, time for me to put my head in the race. And so again, it's, there's three areas that we can pay attention to focus. This is one of them. What are you focusing on? Are you focusing on the things you can do to contribute? Or are you focusing on extraneous details that don't matter or unimportant things? Another thing you can pay attention to is your language. That is what you're saying out loud, but also what you're saying in your head, you know, are, are you talking in such a way that, that you're, you're being restrictive that, you know, I can't do this or, or I don't have anything to offer or you know, I'm unprepared pay attention to that language because I can tell you a lot about what's going on.

(36:31):
You know, maybe in some cases, the language is accurate. Yeah, you are unprepared. Well, then get prepared. But if it's, I don't have anything to offer, you may realize that's just not true. That's just not true. I I've been telling myself that or other people have told me that, but they were wrong. So again, getting clear about that and another thing is physiology, and this is one that people don't often think of. But think about, if you are feeling depressed and insecure, what physical, what physical posture do you take? And, and we all do the same things. It's like, it's the head slumps down the shoulders roll forward. And we've, and we, we can, our, our, our our core muscles, everybody does it the same way. It is the same physiology all the time for that. And we can all see it cause we can look at other people and see it.

(37:31):
We see physically on somebody, that person looks depressed. That person looks confident. That person looks angry. That person looks intrigued. We know, cause it's the same set of stuff. And we do the same set of stuff. Now there's two ways to do this. One is that you, you think about what you want to be, and then you do the physiology. The other is you, you pay attention to what physiology am I exhibiting right now? And that'll tell you what's going on. And you may find that there are subtle changes that can be made, that, that a difference between afraid and excited, you may find there's a lot of crossover there. And all you get to do is change one thing. And you can just check in with yourself. If I'm excited, how do I, how do I hold my body? How does my body act?

(38:19):
Where do I draw, draw attention to, you know, if I'm excited, is that something I feel in my stomach? Is that something that I feel in my head you know, where do I feel it? And you will start to see the difference. So in, in reference to, to, to contribution, if you want to get out of something, look at what do I do when I'm being doubtful versus what do I do when I'm being confident? You know, how do I hold myself? What's different. And, and you're going to find this little things and it's going to be, you know, if I just pull my shoulders back a half inch, my confidence level goes up. If I just hold my head up a half inch higher, my confidence level goes up, find out what the formula is for you. And you know, this is not some big, long study.

(39:07):
This is, this is a, a little experiment you can do for yourself in two or three minutes. And you'll know, and don't give into it because we've a lot of us, we have a pattern of, you know, of dissatisfaction or a pattern of depression that, and I'm not talking about people that, you know, that are, have a clinical problem, but I'm talking about the average garden variety stuff, but we developed a pattern and it's just comfortable. It's just easy. It's familiar because it's certainty. I know how this works. I know how to act depressed. And when you find yourself real, you know, the physiology for it that you're doing and you realize, okay, what I got to do is I got to stop slumping in my chair. I just got to set up a little and it's like, nah, I don't want to sit up, you know?

(39:56):
And you realize, wow, there is just a, a snotty little baby in here that it's sitting up it's not that hard. I can do that. Okay. I'll sit up. You know? And when you do you, if you feel it fighting against like, Oh, I can't hold onto my depression now it's, this is not the right format. You know? So recognize that you have these, these tools that you can use, you can use your physiology, you can use your language, you can use your focus and I don't care what's going on. You can change the circumstance or at least how you're experiencing the circumstance.

Nick Oswald (40:31):
I guess we could have a whole episode on that. Focus, language, physiology, checklists too. I think there's a lot.

Kennth Vogt (40:40):
Yes. Our editor- listen carefully. Put that on the list. We're going to have to have a podcast on that.

Nick Oswald (40:49):
I think maybe this is a good point to just remind people that what we're talking about here is possibly quite new to most people that are, as my dog goes crazy downstairs is possibly quite new to a lot of people. It's certainly very meaty and it's a lot to get your head around. It's not, it's probably not, at least I find it's not something that you can absorb in one pass. So, you know, maybe one approach is to listen to these podcasts more than once. If this is something interests you, but also we will be diving deeper into into various aspects of this in the happy scientist club website sorry, Facebook page which is @facebook.com/thehappyscientistclub, all one word lowercase. So go there and,uand join us.

(41:47):
And if you're interested in this and we will be diving deeper and looking at this from all sorts of different angles that helps you to absorb it. It's not the sort of thing that as I said, sinks in one go, this is kind of a, kind of a lifetime's work to get better and better at this.

Kenneth Vogt (42:02):
Yes. But a lifetime well-spent.

Nick Oswald (42:04):
Absolutely. And, and that's not to say you don't get immediate benefits from, from starting to look at things in this way, in these ways, but certainly there's almost infinite possibility for improvement.

Kenneth Vogt (42:18):
That's right. So I'd say that's a wrap for this episode. We've covered the six human needs and, you know, be sure and visit the Facebook page to the, the podcast notes to see the graphics on this. So you you'll always remember these things now, remember certainty, variety, significance, love, and connection, growth contribution. You can remember that you can hold that in your head and watch for that stuff in the world watch for when it's working and when it's not. And you'll know what it's going to take for you to be a happy scientist,

Nick Oswald (42:51):
Right. And get the cliff notes version at Bitesizebio.com/podcast. Look into The Happy Scientist section and find this one episode four, I think I said episode three earlier, this is episode three. This is episode three. Okay. This is what, I'm the disorganized one around here. So look for episode three, and in the show notes, you'll find a graphic that explains, or, or at least outlines all of these six human needs and how they relate to each other. And you should find that helpful. And then obviously help her head over to The Happy Scientist club, Facebook page where we'll be diving into things more deeply. So I think that's a wrap for the day. Thank you again, Ken. Thank you. And we'll see you next time.

Intro/Outro (43:42):
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