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Nick Oswald: hello, and welcome to the happy scientist podcast from bite sized bio if you want to become a happier healthier and more productive scientist you're in the right place.

Nick Oswald: i'm the causal the founder of bite size, by common with me is the driving force of this podcast can vote, my friend mentor and founder of the coaching company, we are curators.

Nick Oswald: and recent podcast we've talked been talking about giving and receiving help and we're going to extend that theme today with a discussion on whether you can give too much so let's bring in the man himself Ken how you doing.

Kenneth Vogt: hey doing good Nick how are you good.

Kenneth Vogt: It was interesting I originally thought of this is kind of a two part thing but Nick and I are talking about this after the second part, and he said there's a third part and I went there is.

Kenneth Vogt: He says yeah What about when when people give too much of themselves in that all yes that's true We really need to cover that yeah initially we talked about about how you got to go your own way you gotta you gotta pick your own path you get to not be led by the people.

Kenneth Vogt: And then we then we talked about Okay, now that you've picked your own way you're going to need help.

Kenneth Vogt: you're going to need support you're gonna you're gonna want people to gather around you and give to you, but, of course, part of the process of getting people to give to us, you give to them.

Kenneth Vogt: But for many people, they get trapped in this thing about giving away everything and it becomes a pattern where they just totally give themselves away all the time.

Kenneth Vogt: And, and they never get as much back as they give or maybe you don't get anything back at all and.

Kenneth Vogt: You might wonder how do I get out of that state how do I, how do I break that chain, because your nature may be that I want to, I want to help other people or your nature may be, it may be more insidious so maybe I give away so that people will love me.

Kenneth Vogt: And you know that's a that's a counter productive way of approaching a birching your career level in your life.

Kenneth Vogt: Now there's an interesting thing I was, I was pondering year the last couple days Nick that is unique to science in that you do this thing called peer review.

Kenneth Vogt: And I think from from an outside perspective of non scientist, we hear that and we probably don't hear it correctly, we probably don't hear it, the way you mean that is.

Kenneth Vogt: peer review is that is that your work is being reviewed, or even probably more accurately and you're the conclusions of your work of being reviewed by by fellow experts.

Kenneth Vogt: But the way, many of us would here is peer review is my peers reviewing me, and I suspect that many scientists.

Kenneth Vogt: are acting that way themselves, they are looking for peer review, in other words they're looking for approval from their peers.

Kenneth Vogt: It personal approval not approval for their ideas not approval for their conclusions or for their logic, but personal approval, and that is that is the source for many folks have giving too much away so I wonder if he could you could weigh in on that a little neck hmm.

Nick Oswald: that's an interesting one, I have never thought of that angle being specific to scientists, I would say that I think one of the things about this idea of giving away too much is that.

Nick Oswald: I think I don't know, I think that most people don't even realize that they're doing it or that it's a problem.

Nick Oswald: And and and I guess that could be the same here is, if you think that's how you know if you're subconsciously or whatever you're you're copying someone else who is you know given without.

Nick Oswald: Without condition in within you know within a profession that I think that that could be you know, being aware of it is the is is the first step.

Kenneth Vogt: sure.

Nick Oswald: I know I because I think I heard that tendency and you pointed out to me and I was a big surprise to me.

Kenneth Vogt: Well yeah and I think it's because a lot of folks who get into the scientific field, especially bio-sense.

Kenneth Vogt: They they they have an altruistic nature to them, they they do want to help mankind or or you know even even animals or plants that you know the life, they want to help life.

Kenneth Vogt: And, and so it makes sense that somebody who is already approaching the light of the world and life from that perspective would.

Kenneth Vogt: Sometimes, have a tendency to give too much, so the notion here is to understand when to give and when, and when to hold back and use the term earlier, you spoke of being conditional and.

Kenneth Vogt: we've talked about about giving in terms of transactions before which is fine, you know there's nothing wrong with I give you something in response in return, you give me something.

Kenneth Vogt: As long as we're both happy with what we get out of that transaction that's fine.

Kenneth Vogt: There are other times, where an altruistic giving is the right thing to do, where you're giving with no idea of return coming back to you you're just you just doing it you're given to the world, you know you're.

Kenneth Vogt: you're you're putting in the work to to do something that will benefit mankind or or or a smaller group your company your your lab your you know the people you work with your Community whatever it is that it is.

Kenneth Vogt: altruism is just fine, but you have to understand when it is you are being altruistic and what it is, you should be involved in a transaction.

Kenneth Vogt: And what it is, you should just say no, I don't even want to be involved in the transaction i'm not going to give anymore I don't have any more to give.

Kenneth Vogt: So that's part of the the the issue there sometimes you may look at something boy, it would really be good if I was given a situation.

Kenneth Vogt: It would, it would be good for the world or will be good for others or be a great transaction, but you don't have to give you know if somebody offers to sell you a.

Kenneth Vogt: You know, a brand new bentley for $10,000 yes that's that's a great thing you should give $10,000 for that as long as you have $10,000 if you don't have it, then you shouldn't give it you shouldn't you shouldn't break yourself, you shouldn't you shouldn't.

Kenneth Vogt: spend the mortgage payments on that just because it's a good deal so yeah.

Nick Oswald: I have a kind of a no it's not an alternative that was another way to look at that is that maybe you know as well as.

Nick Oswald: You know differentiate between conditional and unconditional and you know, when what what's the difference and when.

Nick Oswald: When you are when it should be a transaction, making sure you get what you what you deserve it's more globally than that is just making just including yourself in the giving so.

Nick Oswald: Make sure that if you're looking after you know the same extent the you look after a lot of people you look after yourself.

Kenneth Vogt: Right, so let me introduce the paradigm for that.

Kenneth Vogt: To put some.

Kenneth Vogt: to wrap something around that because.

Kenneth Vogt: i've noticed that people often get this wrong they can't different they can't get the differentiation straight because we see a dichotomy of either I serve myself.

Kenneth Vogt: or I serve others and I in my notion, maybe if i'm serving others I can't be serving myself.

Kenneth Vogt: And if I serve myself, I cannot be serving others, and so the problem, then, is that when you try to give to other people.

Kenneth Vogt: You may see it that I must do it in such a way that I exclude myself from from any game, and vice versa, if you start to get any gain out of it.

Kenneth Vogt: You think i'm no longer serving others and, and so you you bust into this black and white world, and there are people out there in your world in your life in your lab in your company.

Kenneth Vogt: That live in service to self and they can be very difficult, people to deal with because they're very selfish they're all about what's in it, for me, they can be narcissistic you know I don't want to get into pathology about this, but you know the point being is that outlook in life.

Kenneth Vogt: Usually, for those who who prefer the idea of serving others they look at those those folks and they go I don't want anything to do with that.

Kenneth Vogt: I don't want to be like that I don't and and I don't like to be around those people and I like to work with those people, and I know and I definitely don't like to be under the thumb of those people.

Kenneth Vogt: And so they they hurl themselves into further service to others see i'm not like that i'm not going to do that i'm not going to be like that, but then, then they start cutting themselves off as you noted so rather than thinking of.

Kenneth Vogt: movement that service to others is better than service to self and even better notion than service to others is service to all.

Kenneth Vogt: it's not other you know i'm part of everything you know I am you are just as important as the next person, and if you are operating such way or you're always doing good for other people.

Kenneth Vogt: Instead of seeing as other see them as just people and then recognize, you also have people so when I do something of benefit for Nick.

Kenneth Vogt: If it's also a benefit for me that made it that much better it doesn't have to be exclusively for Nick.

Kenneth Vogt: And to my to my detriment, and it doesn't have to be exclusively to me the next detriment, so if you can start thinking of including yourself.

Kenneth Vogt: In the group that you're serving so you may look at it and say i'm serving a certain Community or i'm you know i'm working.

Kenneth Vogt: on something that will help people with this problem or or i'm working on this, it will just be good for mankind or for for animal life for general life on the planet and recognize you're a piece of that you're a part of it.

Kenneth Vogt: you'll you're one step.

Kenneth Vogt: in a better direction toward not giving away everything and not giving away too much so that you get hurt yourself.

Kenneth Vogt: Is that does that resonate with you, Nick.

Nick Oswald: yeah definitely I think that one other angle that strikes me is that.

Nick Oswald: Sometimes, when you think that you're doing good for other people, by putting yourself then it's not actually the best for yourself but it's definitely not the best for you, but it's not the best for them, either because they.

Nick Oswald: can become reliant on you and you're not giving them the chance to grow and so on, so it's got to be balanced and it's a good way to do it was a definitely a good step for me.

And still as actually to to.

Nick Oswald: evaluate we're.

Nick Oswald: we're you will that bounces for you, you know, are you too far in one direction, and if you're too far in the selfish direction and that obviously have to change as well, but if you.

Nick Oswald: If you're too far in the self less direction then that's equally as damaging for not just yourself, but for the other people around you potentially.

Kenneth Vogt: sure.

Kenneth Vogt: You think of those two words too selfish and selfless.

Kenneth Vogt: we're here selfish and we see here that, as a negative and selfless Oh well, that's that makes them a really good person it's not a good idea to be self less it's.

Kenneth Vogt: You should be part of you should be a part of everything that's going on in your world so i'm not i'm not arguing toward being selfish that.

Kenneth Vogt: To the exclusion of others, but to be self less to the exclusion of yourself is just as bad it's the exclusion that's the problem, not not you know which direction your your attentions are going so.

Kenneth Vogt: drop the exclusion part and that's that's where the solutions will come from I had an interesting experience the other day.

Kenneth Vogt: I mentioned in a.

Kenneth Vogt: Past episode, I had a stroke, a few months ago, and so I haven't been driving lately so i've been using over so I had an uber driver, the other day.

Kenneth Vogt: And we got to talking and he had a stroke very similar to mine for years ago.

Kenneth Vogt: Oh, this is good news for me because here's this guy he's driving his car he's talking just fine he doesn't have any speech problem, so I saw him using his.

Kenneth Vogt: is impaired hand and it didn't look impaired he at one point got out of the car and walked around to my side, I was in the backseat in the passenger side when when I got out he walked around with.

Kenneth Vogt: The mindset of the car, but something he said when he came over he got there, then he stopped and I got out of the car and he says you'll notice I didn't help you.

Kenneth Vogt: And said yeah he says yes, the reason I didn't help us because it wouldn't help you.

Kenneth Vogt: With a bow this guy gets it he wants to give you wanted to help me in fact.

Kenneth Vogt: we're going to have dinner next week.

Kenneth Vogt: So I can talk to him more about his stroke recovery.

Kenneth Vogt: yeah but you know he's certainly willing to give but he understands he needs to be.

Kenneth Vogt: In the process, he could he could have thought i'm going to feel good about myself i'm gonna i'm going to help this guy i'm.

Kenneth Vogt: Because i've recovered, I want to show i'm recovered and i'm in better shape than he didn't he is, and you know there's all kinds of motivations that can be there forgiving others that are actually so good.

Kenneth Vogt: You might be trying to look good rather than to be good and and so until so that.

Kenneth Vogt: brings us to the next thing I was thinking about how do we uncover your motives forgiving, why are you giving well there's some questions you can ask yourself.

Kenneth Vogt: about why you're giving to others, and some of these questions you're going to hear him and you go oh man that is me.

Kenneth Vogt: And suddenly you're going to hear oh I don't do that that's that's not what i'm about but but consider some of these things do you secretly believe that you deserve less than others and, therefore, you have to give away things to other people, because you know they deserve, but you don't.

Kenneth Vogt: Are you compensating for securely believing you deserve more than others, are you trying to hide the fact that you think you're better than other people and so you're going to give it away to to try to try and show you see no no i'm not like that i'm not i'm not doing that at all.

Kenneth Vogt: Do you believe that giving earns you virtue points that make you superior to others, or the giving absolves you from previous selfishness.

Kenneth Vogt: or existing character flaws, are you using your giving in such a way as to fix something that's external to what you're giving.

Kenneth Vogt: So when you start thinking about what is my motivation for this Why am I doing this in some cases to me go i'm just doing it because you know it needs to be done, you know that's that's what we tell ourselves is that really true, I mean really, really question yourself.

Kenneth Vogt: As to whether or not something is really true and and sometimes we'll just ask ourselves, am I doing this because I think i'm less deserving and the answer's no and if you could just ask yourself the second question really is that really true.

Kenneth Vogt: it's amazing how often your answer will change.

Kenneth Vogt: it's it's just this little self examination process, you can go through you know you ask yourself is this so in is that really true.

Kenneth Vogt: And it will uncover you for you why things are happening, and you may be shocked when you do this little examination and next time you give something, especially if you give something.

Kenneth Vogt: in such a way that it hurt you a bit, or that it was costly to you or you felt like man I I shouldn't I didn't have time for that or I didn't have the resources, but I did it anyway and Why did I do that and.

Kenneth Vogt: it's a good time to ask yourself that Why am I doing this what's what's actually driving this to.

Kenneth Vogt: him, am I trying to look good, am I am I trying to not feel bad anymore, you know what is happening here.

Kenneth Vogt: That has caused me to give in a situation where it's just not the right thing to do in that moment, or where it's costing me where i'm not i'm not also benefiting from this giving and and understand you can give in such a way that the way your benefit is is.

Kenneth Vogt: Is indirect it's you know when when you help your your three year old get dressed it doesn't benefit you at all, no they're not going to make you late for work, but yeah.

Kenneth Vogt: But you know they get dressed in a great now they're dressed and I and that's good yeah i'm i'm feeling good about being a good parent and and.

Kenneth Vogt: And that's fine be aware of why i'm doing that, yes, I did it because I love my three year old, but I also did it because you know I, I want to feel good about myself yeah and that's fine.

Kenneth Vogt: But be aware of it, and then you'll, then you will be making choices, because then the other times when when your six year old is bothering you to tie your shoes you, like me, and I have taught you how to tie your shoes.

Kenneth Vogt: tie your own shoe you can do it, you know.

Kenneth Vogt: I remember, I remember when I was a little kid and I was probably about five at the time.

Kenneth Vogt: And I remember walking in with my mother, who was getting ready for work, and it was before school and I stuck out my shoe to hurt to tie my shoe.

Kenneth Vogt: And she said, would you like to learn how to tie your shoe I was like yeah this being subservient to someone else being it's somebody else's you under somebody else's total control all the time.

Kenneth Vogt: yeah I want to know how to do this, and it was it she showed me once and I, and I have tied my shoes ever since well and separate lately.

Kenneth Vogt: But you know.

Kenneth Vogt: Sometimes when we're giving we're giving us because people are asking us and maybe they were asking because we've never bothered it to check in with them, to see if we can help them.

Kenneth Vogt: to learn to do it themselves or or we can give them a step up, and I think a lot of you, especially if you've got you've got you know undergrads working for you or you know or others in your lap.

Kenneth Vogt: You part of the mentoring process is to help them to learn to do for themselves and so giving to them actually isn't much of a gift at that point it'd be far better have a gift give them the tools that they need, so they can they can stand on their own two feet.

Nick Oswald: So, really, really important introspection on one hand, but also it's it's a good experience builder I would.

Nick Oswald: I would say that experience or wisdom builder, if you like, because often the first thing you think of that would be the right thing to do, as an to help someone is not that it's not actually the best thing your your driver later had.

Nick Oswald: experienced that meant that he knew that you needed something other than what people might think, and just you didn't need to be helped you needed to be left to get on with it.

Kenneth Vogt: sure.

Kenneth Vogt: So there's plenty of drivers, like that they want to help them like.

Kenneth Vogt: First, if you don't know how to help and I don't know what to tell you to help so just let me get out of the car, you know, yes.

Nick Oswald: it's a real balances, will be a balance there of.

Nick Oswald: Between motivation and knowledge and.

Nick Oswald: understanding what your motivation is kind of half the battle I would see and looking to see if there's a better way you could do it.

Nick Oswald: can lean towards allowing people to enabling people rather than just.

Nick Oswald: just doing for them is probably the that's probably the balance I don't know that.

Kenneth Vogt: yeah thanks me definitely and you know I mean there, there are times.

Kenneth Vogt: when somebody just genuine really does need your help, and it may not be because of incapacity or in Cape inability on their part of may just be circumstances of the moment.

Kenneth Vogt: That they just they just need some some support, and if you have the capacity to help well absolutely do it, you know we're certainly not advocating not giving here, but we are advocating not giving yourself away, you know if you get to where it's just costing you then.

Kenneth Vogt: Too much more than you can pay well that's that's not good that's not sustainable.

Kenneth Vogt: The other thing is to recognize here that that system, a zero sum game we're not in a contest of other people to see who can give more you don't win at the end of the day, because you gave more than them in a contest that that that's not that's not who wins this so.

Kenneth Vogt: We can all win in this in that we're in and we're working together efficiently and capably in where we're strengthening each other and building them each other and.

Kenneth Vogt: Everyone who has worked on an effective team who's had that experience realizes man that's what I want to have every time.

Kenneth Vogt: If you haven't had that experience i'm sorry for you and I, but I would suggest you if you're not having any experience it may well be the you are not.

Kenneth Vogt: you're not receiving you're not allowing other people to give to you, so you know it's it's it's something to to give consideration to the so.

Kenneth Vogt: So here we are all right, I realized I shouldn't just give myself away.

Kenneth Vogt: And, and I and i've done a little questioning myself and i've seen what my motives are and i'm not real thrilled with what i've what i've learned about myself, but now what what do I do, how do I find the line, how do I know when this is a good time to give.

Kenneth Vogt: And this others not a good time to give.

Kenneth Vogt: Well, there are some signals, you can think about it this way.

Kenneth Vogt: Healthy giving feels good that is you're not going to feel bad after giving in a in a setting there was there was healthy if you feel bad after giving.

Kenneth Vogt: Really examine that Why did I Why did I get into that situation where I felt bad and maybe you felt taken advantage of maybe you felt like oh I I.

Kenneth Vogt: I pick some bad priorities here and I let some important things go to do this when I shouldn't have if you if you're chastising yourself afterwards.

Kenneth Vogt: Okay, something that was telling you right there that you didn't choose properly when it came time to give and sometimes it just kind of like happens on automatic somebody asks you and you just automatically say yes.

Kenneth Vogt: Well that's a dangerous thing because there are times when you just should say no.

Kenneth Vogt: And there are times when you know, sometimes we don't say no, because we're worried that all man they're going to think bad things about me or or it's really going to impact them to the negative and.

Kenneth Vogt: Like you know what can people a chance to solve their own problems you're not that you're not the superhero to solve everybody's problems for them.

Kenneth Vogt: Let them, let them be engaged in their own world and and deal with today what they have to deal with and oftentimes.

Kenneth Vogt: Somebody asks you for something, and you say man I just can't give right now they're like oh that's no problem so okay.

Kenneth Vogt: they're not thinking bad of you after that they just they you know they they saw potential solution to their problem they asked well that wasn't the solution okay fine they move on to the next thing.

Kenneth Vogt: next thing about healthy giving feels sustainable.

Kenneth Vogt: So when you have when when you're given a setting you feel like man, I can just keep doing this, I can I can do that, every time it says to me well, then you know that's that's.

Kenneth Vogt: Some healthy giving but if you're feeling like if I keep this up i'm going to burn out if I have to do that, one more time it's going to break me or it's going to drain my reserves, you know.

Kenneth Vogt: Then you know you're you're going down the wrong road.

Kenneth Vogt: Another thing about giving is when you don't give.

Kenneth Vogt: stinginess feels bad if you held back from giving just out of of you know I just don't want to I hold this for myself, I want to keep my time, I want to keep my reasons, whatever.

Kenneth Vogt: That doesn't feel good well again this is telling you okay I didn't make a good choice there if you want to make a choice that sustainable for you and for everyone else.

Kenneth Vogt: But you got to take care of yourself first and that's not saying take care of yourself exclusively but.

Kenneth Vogt: You are finite resource, you can be drained by other people and there'll be nothing left and then you won't be able to give any more.

Kenneth Vogt: So if you really care about giving and, I suspect, most of you, that is your your main motivation, you really do want to give well given such a way that you can keep giving.

Kenneth Vogt: Because if you give it all away then that's it it's over, and you know you can then you, and then you have no good yourself, you know good anyone else.

Nick Oswald: The great analogy, of course, can about that about the oxygen masks and the Queen of.

Nick Oswald: yep you know the oxygen mask come down in the plane, because the carbons depressurized you spend all your time helping the other person get those on and then you collapse.

Kenneth Vogt: Exactly, so you will you will be strengthened to help many others, if you have your mask on.

Kenneth Vogt: Absolutely so okay I realized have had a problem with this, I realized now, I can tell when i'm having a problem in the moment I realized how I can that I need to make a shift so i'm going to make that shift well here's some things to think about.

Kenneth Vogt: martyrdom is a trap if you're doing this for you're giving yourself away see so you can feel expanded like.

Kenneth Vogt: Well that's it I did everything I could I couldn't have done one more thing you can tell, by the fact that i'm dying here well.

Kenneth Vogt: that that is not the solution that is a that's a lack of wisdom it's great to be compassionate compassion, is a powerful force but compassion without wisdom is is destructive it's mostly destructive to you, it doesn't work you got it you got a temporary your compassion with wisdom.

Kenneth Vogt: And one of the other.

Nick Oswald: ways that that can work cocaine is is that you're you know that goes back to looking at the motivation there.

Nick Oswald: Are you doing that, so that you can.

Nick Oswald: gain points to get expect back from someone else.

Kenneth Vogt: yeah exactly you have a Messiah complex, you know i'm here to save everyone, you know if it wasn't for me no one's would survive, you know.

Nick Oswald: Or the more I do, the more they all you know.

Kenneth Vogt: yeah oh yeah exactly yeah we talked about that a little earlier and really looking looking at your honest motives, since this that's something you have to discuss with.

Kenneth Vogt: With anybody else you know, I have to talk to people you work with your boss, you know talk to your spouse amount, and even if you don't want to you know your best friends.

Kenneth Vogt: Something to know for yourself what is really motivating year what is what is really making me tick and it's good to know i'm not telling you to change it either, but.

Kenneth Vogt: be aware of what it is now there's another adage that is it's good to remember, there is more joy and giving them in receiving.

Kenneth Vogt: Know yeah that's it that's why I like to give all the time well that's that's wonderful, but you know what stop being so selfish about it give other people a chance to have some dry every once in a while, let them do some giving so.

Kenneth Vogt: You can you can be in the receiving into you know you don't have to just give let other people enjoy giving to.

The content.

Kenneth Vogt: So you know don't don't be afraid to accept it, others get either the sometimes we look at like well i'd like to receive, but you know what will they think about me or they're going to think i'm weak or they're going to air it's going to undercut my political position it's like.

Kenneth Vogt: it's just not true.

Nick Oswald: or it's embarrassing to receive a compliment or or.

Kenneth Vogt: Whatever I know you just have to some people go, I know that that's.

Kenneth Vogt: Yes, that get Nick, how do you, you know how to receive a compliment.

I do know.

Kenneth Vogt: it's really simple when somebody complementary you say thank you, thank you that's it there's you know you don't have to give I have to give it to Oh well, you know i'm not that great it's.

Kenneth Vogt: It wasn't that hard no just thank you that's it they they have their position and they they have their perception of what it was they have told you, and now the good thing for you to do is just let them give that yeah.

Nick Oswald: And received and yeah and you when you receive it, then you get the benefit, so why not.

Kenneth Vogt: Exactly now sometimes people are offering things to you and so we're telling you in those situations, you know, be sure to be receptive.

Kenneth Vogt: Sometimes they're not offering.

Kenneth Vogt: So sometimes they just don't know to offer so don't be afraid to ask for help.

Kenneth Vogt: So you know we think oh man that's that's the worst i'm going to look weak i'm going to look deficient it's like no you're going to look human.

Kenneth Vogt: you're going to look like a team player you're going to look like somebody that trust them people like that people and again people want to have the joy of giving give them a shot give them a chance.

Kenneth Vogt: Now the other thing that can happen to is that Okay, maybe you're not just asking for help and ask them to be altruistic maybe you know you have given to them and it's time to call in those favors.

Kenneth Vogt: do so, I mean don't do it in a in a you know I i've got you by the short hairs kind of way but it's like you know I.

Kenneth Vogt: I did this, and that for you man it's time I need to I need to call that chip, and I, I need some help here.

Kenneth Vogt: So what you're doing there, too, is you're letting them know that hey I I can't you you owed me but i'm about to let you off the hook, for showing me this is what I need and then you'll be free, again, you know so.

Kenneth Vogt: Again, you can do it in such a way that isn't like I got you, you have to do this for me that's that's not.

Kenneth Vogt: What you're what you're signaling toward you're saying you know I helped you, and now I really need your help and i'll really appreciate that and.

Kenneth Vogt: So now giving becomes this this not just a two way thing but it becomes a moving thing it's a flow, you know the giving comes in the giving goes out, you know and and it will never stop and you'll stop doing this thing, where you it's all going in one direction.

Kenneth Vogt: you'll stop doing this thing where where you're getting to the point of doing damage and we've we've all heard the know that that saying you know give till it hurts what a stupid thing to say.

Kenneth Vogt: It shouldn't hurt i'm not saying that it shouldn't come an effort that you know it's like going to the gym.

Kenneth Vogt: You know you go and your workout until you feel like you put in a hard workout but you don't do it until you've hurt yourself.

Kenneth Vogt: The the objective isn't to injure yourself, you know, yes, you know fully engaged but don't give it all away don't don't do it, to the point where there's nothing left.

Nick Oswald: And I suppose the the kind of the biology specific way to look at that is that all of biology is about cycles.

Nick Oswald: And so, why would this be any different you've got to got to for it to be sustainable, has to be a cycle has to go one way, and then the other.

Kenneth Vogt: And yeah.

Nick Oswald: If you just keep it going in one direction, then that's an unsustainable reaction, or where.

Kenneth Vogt: Exactly I heard an interesting podcast the other day.

Of.

Kenneth Vogt: A woman who's uh who's actually working for the forestry department in in Canada, Mrs you know bec few decades ago.

Kenneth Vogt: Where they had been clear cutting trees and then they are planting trees and her job was just to see how how the than the new saplings we're doing and they weren't doing well, and she was doing research and trying to figure it out, because you know they.

Kenneth Vogt: And what she started to notice was that there was fungus in the soil that unhealthy trees she'd find that fungus on their roots and i'm a healthy unhealthy trees it wasn't there and it was often.

Kenneth Vogt: On even on different species trees nearby and in it, you know trees that they would consider to be weeds that were in the way of their of their the trees, they wanted to grow for lumber.

Kenneth Vogt: And, but she she was young, and she felt like she felt like she couldn't talk about it.

Kenneth Vogt: And in fact that time she didn't feel like she had enough of a degree to talk about it, she ended up and she ended up going back in and getting a more advanced degree.

Kenneth Vogt: before she finally started talking about it and published about this, and she she was one of the first people to realize.

Kenneth Vogt: That trees were communicating with each other, via this this fungal network and they were sharing nutrients between one another and that it was all part of a of a system that it was like a neural network that that shared information and resources.

Kenneth Vogt: But that sharing was absolutely required when these trees tried to stand alone, they didn't do well if they gave everything away, they didn't do well, that they had to they had to be part of the system, and you know we're we're.

Kenneth Vogt: we're surrounded by networks in life, you know, and I don't just mean human networks i'm talking about biological networks.

Kenneth Vogt: And it should make sense to us, especially those of you who are so well educated in this that you know i'm part of a network to I, I am also a biological creature and.

Kenneth Vogt: i'm involved in in biological activity and even beyond that it's it psychological activities it's part of its wanted to come out of biology so.

Kenneth Vogt: They don't cut yourself off and don't give yourself, all the way you don't have to you don't have to be a sacrificial lamp now I suppose that takes us.

Nick Oswald: neatly back to the original idea about you know the.

Nick Oswald: original idea of this kind of CDs of three podcasts or many CDs of the podcast kind of being in a network, how to not be pulled along by the network, but also how to use it and how to get back to it and how to you know you are, that you are like that that's a great analogy of the trees.

Nick Oswald: You know, communicating in that way it's exactly the same or biological so that kind of I think that's kind of a neat way to to bring this one.

Nick Oswald: You know i'm too i'm not experienced enough, so I kept this observation one be right.

Kenneth Vogt: So i'm not gonna say anything and that's.

Nick Oswald: that's definitely something we should cover at some point I.

Kenneth Vogt: don't know why.

Kenneth Vogt: yeah there was something you really struck me about this is.

Kenneth Vogt: Now she's seen as a world expert on this but, at the time she she felt so insignificant that she couldn't speak up and she may well have introduced an idea 10 years earlier, that what i've done a lot of good yep that she was she was scared and she held back.

As a common problem.

Nick Oswald: I think we can probably something worth discussing another in another episode, but I think that runs off a great series there can have.

Nick Oswald: An again, it might be worth people going back and looking listening to the previous two episodes you know, listening to this again that we've.

Nick Oswald: You know you've gone through at once, is really about the bigger picture about what it means to be part of a network.

Nick Oswald: You know whether that's in a family or a profession or a lab or whatever, and how to both bring up your own pet you know be yourself within that network, but also how to given take within that network in a healthy way.

Exactly.

Kenneth Vogt: agree agree topic actually can and.

Nick Oswald: That brings me to the the housekeeping parts of it, so will there will be a summary I don't think we mentioned any specific resources, this time.

Nick Oswald: But there'll be a summary of the of the podcast the main points of the podcast in the show notes, which you can find that bite sized by a.com the happy scientist, and this is episode 30.

Nick Oswald: And of course you can find the show notes for all other episodes as well, in the same the same place and.

Nick Oswald: Also, if you want to get more from what we are you more of this great advice that can is freely giving out here, you can look@facebook.com.

Nick Oswald: Forward slash the happy scientist club which is all one word and we'll be in there, giving some you know further insights and.

Nick Oswald: different ways to look at this as well and it'd be good to see you and there.

Nick Oswald: And finally, remember the episodes 129 of this podcast if you haven't done this already is worth going back and look into those because those are where we talk about the fundamental principles some awesome fundamental principles that will really help you to.

Nick Oswald: You know, to calibrate and reset your outlook on things and understand yourself a bit better really those things really helped me.

Nick Oswald: And so 129 episodes 129 of US podcaster where you'll find those so again came thanks for a really another really insightful topic.

Nick Oswald: and very well.

Kenneth Vogt: Thanks for suggesting it Nick as.

Nick Oswald: Well then, again yeah I should say that yeah I should accept that, but the last one was me, but the first.

Nick Oswald: So again, thanks again and we'll catch you all next time.

Kenneth Vogt: bye now bye.