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Nick Oswald: hello, and welcome to the happy scientist podcast from bite sized bio if you want to become a happier healthier and more productive scientist you're in the right place.

Nick Oswald: i'm going to cause world, the founder of bite size by a.com and with me is the driving force of this podcast Mr Kenneth book my friend mentor and founder of the coaching company Vieira curators today's episode is called what you don't know you don't know what is that all about came.

Kenneth Vogt: Well it's a little bit of a brain twister at the beginning that once once we describe this I think it'll become clear to everyone.

Kenneth Vogt: And then the real mystery will be how do you figure out what you don't know you don't know.

Kenneth Vogt: It because that's where that's where all of the learning is and that's where all the creativity comes from and all the imagination so it's it's a really vital area, because you can think oh that's just impossible, so why bother.

Kenneth Vogt: As bio scientists, you are dealing in the impossible on a daily basis, so you better get good at this so we're going to help you today.

Kenneth Vogt: So we'll start off with the the most obvious thing is what you know you know you know you've you've worked hard in fact to gain the knowledge that you have, and especially for many of you, with your your advanced degrees, you know that.

Kenneth Vogt: You put a lot of effort into knowing stuff.

Kenneth Vogt: So these are things that you're aware of, and that you understand, because you know there's there's the the dichotomy of knowledge of the things you might know, but you don't really don't really get them.

Kenneth Vogt: But in your case it's really important that you understand and you're you're constantly pushing the envelope on that there, there are there are limits.

Kenneth Vogt: To our current understanding of many things, and so you are really striving to understand things that that have been uncovered and have been discovered and that's great.

Kenneth Vogt: And you can make a whole career i've just that never go beyond that and there'd be nothing wrong with it it'd be fine yeah you you you'd be useful, you would enjoy yourself but, but it is quite a bit more limited than and it's possible for you.

Kenneth Vogt: So the next area of of knowledge is the things you know you don't know so the things you're aware of, but you're certain you don't understand them.

Kenneth Vogt: And you know, in a more mundane sense, you might be like look i'm certainly know how to drive a car, but I am certain that I do not know how to fly a 787.

Kenneth Vogt: You know so knowing what you don't know can be quite useful it'll keep you from getting into trouble it'll keep you from doing things that are dangerous or or that you just couldn't succeed at.

Kenneth Vogt: And and there's nothing wrong with that there, it is not impacted my life one iota that I can't fly a commercial airline.

Kenneth Vogt: hey but i've but i've known all my life I couldn't do it and it's fine and it does open up the possibility that now that I know I don't know.

Kenneth Vogt: Why could choose to know it, I could go out and learn that and I could gain that skill and it doesn't have to be something that extreme obviously it could be little things.

Kenneth Vogt: And if you think about all the things all the skills you've developed over time they're all things that you learn how to do it, it may have started off where you learned how to walk and you learn how to talk, but you after a while you learn how to use certain equipment in the laboratory.

Kenneth Vogt: You, and you know things that an average person might not know how to do, and some of them might have been some will put some of the morn and.

Kenneth Vogt: Nick and I spent a lot of time with some folks that are expert my craft purpose and yeah, to my mind, you know as a.

Kenneth Vogt: As somebody was outside of the scientific field, I thought well every scientist uses a microscope They must all be experts at it.

Kenneth Vogt: board, and I find out no not so it's a it's quite a thing to be a true microscopy expert well for most of you are scientists, you know you're not that.

Kenneth Vogt: And so, what do you do in a situation like that well you go to two experts when you need when you need assistance with that when you when you need to.

Kenneth Vogt: really push the envelope on the equipment you're using or the message that that that you're putting into practice, you go to experts to get help.

Kenneth Vogt: So.

Kenneth Vogt: This leaves the final area of knowledge, what you don't know you don't know.

Kenneth Vogt: And it's I can't give you an example for that, because the moment I give you an example, well then it's something you know you don't know.

Kenneth Vogt: And so you got to look at that and think that's tough, but we all know, there that there are things that we're not aware of, and sometimes we know that we're not aware of things, but often we don't know.

Nick Oswald: And I i've got an example came.

Kenneth Vogt: Oh go ahead.

Nick Oswald: i'm an example from the history of biology, which I think.

is an example of what you're talking about here, I hope it is anyway.

Nick Oswald: So back.

Kenneth Vogt: into the MIC a little.

Nick Oswald: Oh, am I too far away.

Much better.

Okay.

Nick Oswald: Right, so the back in the mess of time last century, when I was an undergrad we were.

Nick Oswald: taught that every on the genome.

Nick Oswald: They were jeans and then everything in between the jeans was junk DNA was dismissed as junk DNA and.

Nick Oswald: That was there was no question of that struck me at that point, there was no question of you know that being or the attitude was it there was no question of that actually being anything other than junk.

Nick Oswald: But actually since then we've discovered that there's.

Nick Oswald: A whole range of functions that we didn't know about that, many of which are very important for for understanding of biology, but also for disease, treatment and and things like that so at that time we didn't we didn't know that we didn't know that that stuff was important.

Nick Oswald: And, in a way, as it comes back to that one thing that we talked about quite a lot is humility about realizing that you.

Nick Oswald: Just because you don't know what something is doesn't mean that that it's nothing if you see what I mean.

Nick Oswald: Exactly.

Nick Oswald: You must be open to the fact that it could be.

Nick Oswald: something other than what you think it is with the with the information that you have.

Kenneth Vogt: Right and what you don't know you don't know kind of breaks down into two categories and that's kind of the first one, that is, that is, that something you understand, but you're not aware of, in other words you knew there were jeans there, there were things in between those jeans.

Kenneth Vogt: You knew something was there, but you assume they didn't they didn't now new value well it can't be.

Kenneth Vogt: It can't be that way we've we've come to.

Kenneth Vogt: Come to learn, I mean i'm speaking as a neophyte here, but I i've heard stories about this, but it began with you, you least you saw something.

Kenneth Vogt: But there's other stuff you just plain didn't see and you know I remember, there was a time not that long ago.

Kenneth Vogt: When we didn't even know there were jeans any jeans and, by the way, every one of us who's on the spot and listen to this podcast every one of you, there was a time when you didn't know about jeans.

Kenneth Vogt: You had to learn that somebody had to had to open your eyes to that as a concept, even and, at the beginning, maybe they told you about it and you only had them the most fuzzy understanding of what that means and kind of like my present understanding of it.

Kenneth Vogt: You know, I have a vague idea what a gene is all about, but you know, not to the extent that any of you do because you've dug in that much deeper and so that's that's part of what happens here yeah you have to take a look at knowledge and kind of and see.

Kenneth Vogt: where you stand in relation to it.

Kenneth Vogt: So I want to give you a kind of them have a landscape for knowledge, just a way to think about this so that i'm gonna i'm gonna break it into four groups, what are called the known knowns.

Kenneth Vogt: The unknown knowns.

Kenneth Vogt: The known unknowns and the unknown unknowns.

Kenneth Vogt: So to think about them.

Kenneth Vogt: More clues and know knowns that's just knowledge that's just the stuff the stuff that we would typically think of as now and and more personally, we can think about iron out now, there will be things that.

Kenneth Vogt: we're aware are known in the world, but we don't know about.

Kenneth Vogt: So, and that might be part of what's in the unknown unknowns so.

Kenneth Vogt: So, in the case of unknown unknowns the impact is unknown, but the existence is no so think of it as untapped analogy.

Kenneth Vogt: And we meet analogy you haven't yet access, you know it's there, though, and maybe it's in that in that paper you know you should be reading or.

Kenneth Vogt: or it's in a conversation with a more experienced colleague, but there's a there's an unknown unknown up there.

Kenneth Vogt: Well then, about these things that like but you're talking about neck, that there are a moment ago, known unknowns, these are the areas of risks.

Kenneth Vogt: If we just stuck with that assumption that all that's just junk DNA how much would have been lost, how how much has how much have we grown since we wouldn't wouldn't accept that notion of this is just junk and more study was put in more effort was made.

Kenneth Vogt: And then finally these these unknown unknowns, these are the unfathomable uncertainties, we did we just.

Kenneth Vogt: We that's where all the juices, this is where discovery comes from this is where creativity comes from.

Kenneth Vogt: You know it's not much of a discovery for you to go to textbook and learn something you didn't know before it was it was right there in the book, you know.

Kenneth Vogt: And it's not even that much of a discovery to my I don't want to take away from discovery of things like what this supposedly junk DNA is all about, because I mean it's still meaningful, but first discovering that there was this thing that would they label junk DNA.

Kenneth Vogt: That was a huge step forward and you may think it's a huge first step, you think if that's a step forward, all we do is get to a place where we don't know anything, yes, but it is critical to know what you don't know that that is where all the opportunity lies.

Kenneth Vogt: So i'm gonna i'm going to pause there for a second and and let that sink in there, Nick and see if you have anything more to say about it.

Nick Oswald: Well, I think that the only thing i'd see.

Nick Oswald: as well, the main thing that I would say is that to check the show notes, if that is confusing, because we have that landscape of knowledge.

Nick Oswald: map mapped on in the show notes the known knowns unknown knowns known unknowns and unknown knowns so that's so.

Kenneth Vogt: unknown unknown.

Nick Oswald: unknown unknowns yeah so if we're looking at discovery, you know, this being I guess that the main take home from this.

Nick Oswald: is to be aware that that the kind of the world can be divided into that into those four sections really or the all of the possible knowledge can be.

Nick Oswald: divided into those four sections and and just to be aware of that, I guess that would be the first step, because then you that gives you the humility to say Okay, you know to be aware that there are things that you that you don't know and you don't know you don't know.

Right.

Nick Oswald: Which is the first step on the path to investigating them and then and uncovering what is actually going on there.

Kenneth Vogt: yeah i've noticed Nick that in in quite a few episodes you've explicitly referenced humility and it's becoming kind of a theme for the podcast because it's such a such a critical component to being a successful and happy scientist.

Kenneth Vogt: it's it you're just not going to get anywhere if you think you know everything.

Nick Oswald: yeah that I mean that's The thing is that the in a way, the less you can assume.

Nick Oswald: The.

Nick Oswald: Easier your life is in a way, because the more open, you are the less you'll path yourself.

Kenneth Vogt: If the less you assume the more you will see.

Nick Oswald: well.

Nick Oswald: That is real that's a great way to look at it yeah.

Kenneth Vogt: yeah it was really well done, that were because we think something is a certain way that's how we see in and whether that's a literally about site.

Kenneth Vogt: or about experiences, you know.

Kenneth Vogt: That we're having with other people, or it is so easy to cut yourself off from things that you're actually getting input from but you're blocking the input.

Kenneth Vogt: You won't hear it, you won't see it, you know you won't feel it it and it all comes down to you, setting up preconceived notions about how things are.

Kenneth Vogt: So to know what you know is pretty easy, and you know what you know that we didn't there isn't even a barrier there and to know what you don't know that's also pretty easy you're that you're very clear on that.

Kenneth Vogt: and

Kenneth Vogt: So the question is how do you see something we don't even know it's there because that you are here, we are telling you about how important it is.

Kenneth Vogt: To grasp what you don't know you don't know and you're going yeah great you just told me I can't know it, so how am I supposed to know about what I don't know you know, in that, in that setting so.

Kenneth Vogt: there's a way to do this so i'm going to give you i'm going to give you the tools.

Kenneth Vogt: so that you can become aware of what you don't know you don't know I don't want to start off by telling telling a tale about myself.

Kenneth Vogt: One i'm not proud of.

Kenneth Vogt: And yeah.

Kenneth Vogt: Like many of you, I was a precocious little child and I was good in school, and I really liked math.

Kenneth Vogt: And I was good at it and I couldn't understand why the kids complained about math but how they hated it now so hard.

Kenneth Vogt: Just to me it was just.

Kenneth Vogt: It was so obvious, and it was so orderly and beautiful and I just thought that was fantastic.

Kenneth Vogt: And then I got I got place to do an advanced math class i'm inventing I was placed in algebra your earlier than it would have been typical in my school system.

Kenneth Vogt: And i'm so excited this is going to be awesome and i'm going to be great at this and the teacher starts off and she starts talking about formulas with letters them not just numbers.

Kenneth Vogt: And I didn't get it, she gave that first lecture at the end of that class I was like a deer in the headlights I did not understand what this X was.

Kenneth Vogt: X equals to how can X equal to it's in the alphabet you know I just I just couldn't get it, and it was so here was this thing that I didn't know I didn't know i'd never even heard this concept before.

Kenneth Vogt: And I walked out of that class scared that all know this is, this is the moment where my identity is this this smart kid who gets math was all over, and I was in the class, you know for the other advanced kids and they were getting into least so it appeared to me.

Kenneth Vogt: I thought i'm doomed but I don't know what happened, I went home that night scared I went to sleep and I woke up and I understood it.

Kenneth Vogt: I woke up and I got it.

Kenneth Vogt: Part of it was I had this compelling need to get it, it really managed me so.

Kenneth Vogt: So that's one of the things that it starts out being you need to be committed to being able to see the things you don't know that you don't know.

Kenneth Vogt: You got to make conscious choice that way now in my case, the conscious choice was made from a fairly weak position, I was afraid to not get it.

Kenneth Vogt: But I could have come from a much more powerful position of being excited to learn and where I was going to reach out for it, but you know get there, whatever way you got to right.

Kenneth Vogt: If if you're being motivated by by moving away from something you know I don't want to be the guy that doesn't understand this.

Kenneth Vogt: Okay use that better yet, though, if you can be excited about I want to be the person that gets it I wanna I want to be.

Kenneth Vogt: I want to be a discover, I want to be an explorer I want to learn things that nobody's even thought to learn before.

Kenneth Vogt: And you have so many great examples in bio science for this you've had so many go before you you've you've got great possibilities.

Kenneth Vogt: For heroes and mentors you know nice when I say heroes, I mean you know that might be some of the people that have.

Kenneth Vogt: made great discoveries, you know Louis best or and you know that l, but you can have mentors that theater right in your lap right now.

Kenneth Vogt: They can be professors you've had in the past, they can be fellow students that did you came up with that just you know really have the spark.

Kenneth Vogt: So make use of those people to to help you and, and so you know to do that, you got to commit to the idea i'm going to explore what I don't know I don't know.

Kenneth Vogt: Anything you want to weigh in there on Nick.

Nick Oswald: Nothing specific is coming to mind, but.

Nick Oswald: I think that yeah I think you're on the right path and i'm looking at the rest of your notes, I think you're.

Kenneth Vogt: Just cut Okay, let me go into this and feel free to interrupt me.

Kenneth Vogt: So the next one, I want to make is beyond commitment is you gotta trust trust that you're headed in the direction of new knowledge.

Kenneth Vogt: Give yourself that opportunity you don't have to even see any signs of it does that's kind of the point, how many times have you learned something where it just like it came to you in a flash.

Kenneth Vogt: Or you had an intuition or a hunch, these are not uncommon experiences and yeah are they are, they are wholly rational know they're not well guess what we're not wholly rational.

Kenneth Vogt: Now i'm not i'm not advocating irrationality here, but I am pointing out that rationality is limited.

Kenneth Vogt: It only takes you so far so don't be afraid to go beyond rationality go a little further and trust that there's going to be something they're defined now i'm not saying that every time that you, you look under a rock you're going to see something that's not true.

Kenneth Vogt: But what the one thing that is going to happen is you keep looking into rocks you're going to see things.

Kenneth Vogt: So trust that there are things out there to to learn, and there are things out there, that you will find you know that it's not just that they it's possible that they're out there you're gonna you're gonna run across them if you continue to make the effort.

Kenneth Vogt: That the power that.

Kenneth Vogt: that trust is to have curiosity, to have that that curiosity, is going to give you the energy to keep experiencing things that are out there and and keep trying things.

Kenneth Vogt: And again, we can go all the way back to childhood we've been doing this, our whole lives you wouldn't know how to do anything if you hadn't been curious about something.

Kenneth Vogt: And I I suspect that that for the for the kind of folks that end up as PhD bio scientists curiosity is probably been a regular part of your life, up until now.

Kenneth Vogt: You know their whole groups of other people that I would say, you know you can't guarantee that curiosities can be much of a factor there, but I think with with.

Kenneth Vogt: This crowd yes curiosity is pretty Naturally there so tap into that and expand on it, you already know how to do it, so be really good at it and if you if you don't think you're really good at it get better at it.

Kenneth Vogt: And it's just it's a matter of practice, you know, putting your time in and you'll be more curious and just always be looking for one more thing, what else can I learn here, what else could I know here now, what else is possible.

Kenneth Vogt: And then finally another another thing to consider is the idea of freedom.

Kenneth Vogt: And that is that you're free to see things you're free to learn things and experience new things you're you are free to experience something new and unexpected.

Kenneth Vogt: I realized that it can be useful for things to be orderly and, in some cases it's practically necessary.

Kenneth Vogt: And, in some cases for what you're doing it's it's a matter of safety that things be reliable, but you know what new and unexpected happens sometimes your entire experiment just dive.

Kenneth Vogt: In and wow that's that's horrible right except there may be something really important to learn there and that that gives you the opportunity then to see something you didn't know you didn't know and.

Kenneth Vogt: I mean I can't undervalue freedom be free and what you're doing because you're the ones on the cutting edge for for me sitting here by my computer I can't I can't even see where you are.

Kenneth Vogt: You talk about what I don't know I don't know I don't know what I don't know about what you guys are doing on a regular daily basis and it's fantastic that you're doing it otherwise i'd have to do.

Kenneth Vogt: And I just don't have time i'm doing other things, but you know, the same thing is happening here, you know the things that we're talking about in this podcast you probably don't have.

Kenneth Vogt: In many cases, put a lot of thought into some of these things well that's why we have this podcast to introduce these things to you to let you know about some things you don't know you don't know.

Kenneth Vogt: Because you may never, never considered them before, and for good reason you've been busy with other things so.

Kenneth Vogt: This is, this is my admission.

Kenneth Vogt: So any further thoughts Nick.

Nick Oswald: yeah, so I think if you just take it back to the level of just talking about you can apply this to all different.

Nick Oswald: This this free marker this viewpoint, all different areas of your life, but just taking it into the area of your job as a scientific discover if that's what you're if you're if you're a researcher and the moment.

Nick Oswald: Just again this isn't This is, as you said, this is becoming a theme on this podcast but for me you're looking at these.

Nick Oswald: You know, forcing these qualities and yourself commitment trust curiosity and freedom to be open to explore what's happening in front of you, rather than just assuming and being past.

Nick Oswald: And, and the context of discovery that's that's you know more than just you know it's a very important thing for me the pivot or curiosity and trust, because what we often see or what i've often seen in science is.

Nick Oswald: This whole thing about chasing results about going for result you're.

Nick Oswald: tamping down the curiosity, because you don't.

Nick Oswald: trust that the work you're doing is going to take you where you wanted really wanted to, and where, will you need to get to to get to the next milestone, the next paper or the next.

Nick Oswald: Funding or whatever, and so you sacrifice curiosity and freedom.

Nick Oswald: For the what feels like more secure in terms of trying to get the result that you need.

Nick Oswald: But if you can just open that up and be aware of that, although that you're trying, you know you would like a specific result to happen if you can sit back and say well be open to another result, and that would just take you on a different path, then that is much more pristine discovery.

Nick Oswald: than this kind of trying to force results.

Kenneth Vogt: Right and this This takes us back to episode one and two of this podcast the first episode was talking about the human needs of certain date which.

Kenneth Vogt: may speak to a lot of y'all just automatically like yes, I love that, but the second human eaters variety and variety, is the place where you get into these, these are not yeah.

Nick Oswald: yeah I mean that's the thing you're an explorer so explore don't try and.

Nick Oswald: You know, make the past before they are actually defined in front of you, even if you think they are.

Kenneth Vogt: Right and and, as you noted a moment ago, Nick to this is a place in your whole life, and I think back to something use an example for me I love sushi.

Kenneth Vogt: But i'm i'm a white boy from the Midwest How would I have ever had sushi well I moved to California and I saw the sushi restaurants around and.

Kenneth Vogt: And, of course, of course, being.

Kenneth Vogt: You know I proud Wisconsin boys like what who would eat raw fish that's crazy, you are doing such a thing well so for years I didn't try it and, but I just kept seen in thing.

Kenneth Vogt: I gotta know I got to know I got it what what is it that did it it's so exciting to people and I thought well i'm going to go in one time, when I have a terrible experience.

Kenneth Vogt: i'm gonna waste of money and then at least be able to say, I know, and I won't care anymore, and I liked it.

Kenneth Vogt: Then I thought on a bring my kids and my kids were little you know what like five six years old and I thought ah they're going to hate it, you know my son said at that sushi counter.

Kenneth Vogt: And he looked at those fishing, you know the things laying in the corner and he saw the octopus and it's basically a tentacle was suckers on it and he's like oh what's that.

Kenneth Vogt: He wasn't afraid to try something new and I thought man, if I had had this that attitude five years earlier, I would have been enjoying sushi that much longer so.

Kenneth Vogt: This applies across the across the board in your life applied in work for sure, but then spread it out and rest of your life too and you'll find it gets easier everywhere, once you start implementing this curiosity and and and freedom in the world.

Nick Oswald: it's definitely interesting when you look at what limitations you place on yourself by just assuming that you can't do this or that you are this or whatever, if you can dissolve that, then you can open some.

Nick Oswald: New opportunities for yourself.

Kenneth Vogt: Yes, sir.

Nick Oswald: Okay yeah another interesting and useful way to look at the world Ken Thank you very much.

Kenneth Vogt: All right, thank you.

Nick Oswald: So if you enjoyed the episode today, and you want more you know you can find more of the stuff on bites his bio bio bio.com forward slash the happy scientist and on facebook@facebook.com forward slash the happy scientist club and Ken mentioned earlier the episodes wanted to.

Nick Oswald: we're talking about human needs, and so on.

Nick Oswald: We if you go back to episode one to nine and fact contain a lot of foundational principles that if you haven't.

Nick Oswald: listened to them already it's worth going back and listen to those and if you have us into them, please let us know what you thought by joining us on Facebook that happy scientists clump and.

Nick Oswald: And let us know what you thought, let us know how you feel that applies to you or doesn't and any questions that you might have the rice as well, so that just leave us me to thank you again for another great episode can.

Kenneth Vogt: Give.

Nick Oswald: Thanks to everyone for listening in and we'll see you again next time.