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Intro/outro (00:04):
This is the happy scientist podcast. Each episode is designed to make you more focused, more productive, and more satisfied in the lab. You can find us online at Bitesizebio.com/happy scientist. Your hosts are Kenneth Vogt, founder of the executive coaching firm Vera Claritas and Dr. Nick Oswald, PhD bioscientist and founder Bitesize Bio.

Nick Oswald (00:34):
Hello and welcome to The Happy Scientist podcast from Bitesize Bio. If you want to become a happier, healthier, and more productive scientist, you're in the right place. I'm Nick Oswald the founder of Bitesizebio.com, where we provide bio-science researchers with help for improving their technical skills, their soft skills and their wellbeing. And in this podcast, we'll be focusing on the latter of those three area. With me, the driving force of this podcast is Kenneth Vogt. I've worked with Kenneth for over seven years now with him as my business mentor and colleague. And I knew that his experience would help a lot of researchers. So we started this podcast and these sessions we'll hear mostly from Ken on principles that will help shape you for a happier and more successful career along the way. I'll pitch in with points from my personal experience as a scientist and from working with Ken. So let's bring in the man himself, how are you doing today, Ken?

Kenneth Vogt (01:28):
I'm doing great, Nick. It's great to be here. Well today we're going to start a new three part series. This one is entitled recognizing the core mindsets that control your world. And again, we're going to talk about six things. Six is a number you're going to find out like a lot, because anybody can remember six things, as long as we give you enough framework to, to understand them. And so we're going to talk about six core mindsets that exist in the world that is exists in the world that you're typically interacting with the people that you work with. And whether they be your fellows in the lab or them be your bosses, or they be be customers or clients or end users of, of what, of whatever you've developed or the suppliers that you deal with. Everybody that you're interacting with is going to have a basic way of looking at the world.

(02:27):
So these core mindsets, they are, they are the irreducible components that make up each one of us. And there are each individuals go to way of looking at things and approaching life. And when you go deep enough, you'll find that there's one process of these six. And we're talking about that will continually show up in your attitudes, your perspective in your underlying intention. And the same thing is true of everyone else you interact with. You'll start to recognize the mindset that is being used by your boss or by the supplier or by this colleague or, or your spouse or your children, or whatever, until you'll start to see them as patterns. And the beauty of the patterns is that once you recognized the pattern, there's, there's a bunch of things about it that, that are typical. And so you'll immediately know something about that person that even if there's somebody you just met, you can make a quick assessment and realize, okay, well, they probably have this kind of underlying thinking and it can, it can really help your interaction with them. It can help you it'll help you to understand them. It'll help you get them to help you do what you need to do. And if you understand your own mindset, it'll help you realize this is what I need to be satisfied. This is what I need to be functional and to get things done. And it'll also help you realize what I have to do to interact with others. Cause these, these mindsets, they kind of stack on each other.

Nick Oswald (03:59):
So just to, just to chime in with how I understand these. So Ken, is that this is a concept that you've put together, I believe, is that correct?

Kenneth Vogt (04:11):
Well, I'll go into the history of how I got to it, but if you have,

Nick Oswald (04:16):
Oh, okay. Okay. That's fine. Well, my understanding is that whether you made it, you came up with it yourself, or it was derived from something else. This is a kind of observational grouping of people into kind, you know, everyone can be grouped into one of six categories and not not exclusively. It's not like it's not that everyone's the same, but varying degrees, I think. But the main idea is that it's, it's like the, what we talked about, the six human needs in the last few sentences. It's, it's one way of looking at the world is one way of looking at people. It's not claiming to be a panacea, but actually I have found that since Ken showed me this concept, I find it remarkably accurate. And or remarkably, you know, it's remarkable how people map to one of these six areas in general and, and how, how helpful it is to understand where people are having conflict or where people are not seeing things in the way that you do. And so on. And again, that helps create conflict resolution helping to meet people's core needs and so on.

Kenneth Vogt (05:31):
Exactly. And as Nick is saying, this is not meant to be perfect, but it works 98% of the time, 98% of the time, you're going to know exactly what you're dealing with. And it really, really helps to clarify matters.

Nick Oswald (05:48):
All of the time, 90% of the time.

Kenneth Vogt (05:52):
Yeah. It takes, it takes the guesswork out of it, and it takes the uncertainty out of it. And, and that really, that can really be helpful. Now, there is a history to this, and yes, I did develop these six core mindsets. However, I stand on the shoulders of giants and the people that went before me are kind of interesting. So I think it's worth talking about now, these are also scientists, but they're in a different kind of science. We're talking about sociologists and psychologists. And I realized for folks in the hard scientists, they might find that a little squishy.

(06:29):
However, I think if you look at some of this stuff and you see the development of it, you will recognize a pattern. It looks very familiar to you that this, this is about, about experiments and results and, and learning what works and learning what doesn't work. And it's the same kind of thing. This, this all began with something, it was a concept called spiral dynamics that was developed by a professor of psychology that his name was Clare Graves. And this was really more of a sociological outlook on the world. He was looking for, how do human societies develop? And you think, okay, well, what does that have to do with me in the lab? And I'm granted not much. And in fact, is, his thinking about this, didn't really get that much attention. And he eventually died. And that was that, but a few others psychologist years later picked up on this and thought, you know, why it makes sense from a sociological standpoint, is there a psychological application for this?

(07:44):
And they found that there was, so these two scientists were a Christopher Cowan and Don Beck. And, and they took Clare Graves work and said, let's try and apply this to individuals. And they went, they went down a long rabbit hole and it's complicated and messy. And I looked at all that, and I thought, I thought this was really fascinating, but what can we do to make this applicable, to just average people in their normal working lives? Cause again, you know, my practice was, was consulting for people in business. And so I developed this again, I was a system that had to have six components because six was a number I knew that people could remember and that they could take forward day-by-day. And so I thought, how much of this can I map on? And I found it wasn't as difficult as I thought, because I first looked at it and they had so many levels.

(08:43):
They had like 13 levels of things. And, and it was just too much to remember. It was too much for me to remember and I was into it. But then I realized out of these, actually most of those levels don't matter. They either they're just not common in modern society anymore, or they're not yet common in modern society. Cause they're, they also are they were considering about how will mankind continue to grow so well, let's, let's stick to where mankind is here. Let's stick to what we got now. And so there are six core mindsets that you're likely to encounter at any given time in your work and in the people that you work with, if somebody isn't among one of these six, they're either, they're either unqualified to be part of your world or they have gone beyond it.

(09:38):
And so they don't matter in your world, in your world, you're going to encounter these six groups and you'll probably just encounter two or three of them most of the time, but it's good to know about the others that are around the edges too. And so we're going to talk about these. Now, the reason this thing was originally called spiral dynamics is because it was about an upward spiral of, of development. So you can imagine then that every, every step of the way expands on the one that was before it. So I hesitate to call these things. This is moving, you know, upward or, or left to, right. You know, like one is better than the other, because the fact is, and this is something that I'm going to come back to again and again, whatever level somebody is at they're absolutely doing the best they can, this, if they could do better, they would move to the next level. So we have to understand when we're dealing with people and we're talking about these mindsets. If they have a certain mindset, they don't have it because they're lazy or they're stupid, or they're, they're unwilling. They're just, they're doing what they can do. And just that right there, if you start to recognize all the people you deal with and especially the difficult people that they're doing the best they can do, you'll start to take a different view of things.

Nick Oswald (11:06):
Yeah. It's quite a, it's quite an important point to realize isn't it, that what really, what you're doing is looking at a map of, kind of overall map of how the mind as not as a collective, by how the mind in general develops, you know, and, and we're under various reasons why people will you know, depending on your upbringing or, or, or whatever, where do you will begin on that? On, on this kind of in these classifications, if you like but it's possible to move again, growth moving to the next level of this mindset. These sort of this series of mindsets is, would you say that maps onto the growth that we talked about, in previous episodes?

Kenneth Vogt (11:55):
Definitely. And another thing you're going to see about this too, is that it maps to groups as well as it as individuals. So you're going to see that departments have one of these, one of these mindsets or, or whole academic organizations or whole companies, or certain groups of people. And, and again, it's just, it just has this crystallization to things when you're looking at the world and you just go, ah, I get that, you know, there's a, there's a structure here that I can as a starting point for me to understand this. So the another nice thing, this, this comes all the way back to Dr. Graves' original work. One of the things he did is he chose a color for each of these levels, which really was brilliant mean as a, as a, a memory tool. That's great too. And it's a, it's a joke that Nick and I have that, that we talk about colors all the time in, in, in his business. And, and of course I've trained some of his people to some of his management people, so they they're often talking about, so, and so's so, and so's orange or so-and-so is green. And it's an automatic conveyance of a bunch of information between one person and other in a single word. So it's useful to, to think of these things in colors too.

Nick Oswald (13:19):
I, and what I think actually it's an important point though, because you can be talking about someone as you'll find out once we get through and figure and sort of explain what each, each color is. Once when you're talking about someone being orange or someone being a green mindset, then if you didn't have those, that classification realize that those are two very different mindsets, then you could be criticizing that person for just being difficult or, or, you know, not seeing it the way you see it. But if you see that, okay, they're orange. So they're looking at it this way, but I tend to look at it another way. And so it's just realizing that they look at the world in a different way. So actually, again, it diffuses the situation because you can see someone's being orange or red or whatever, or operating with that mindset. And you can, then you get a different viewpoint on how they're thinking or not a viewpoint. You give a different acknowledgement to how they're thinking and and then helps you to understand why they're coming from that, that place,

Kenneth Vogt (14:23):
Right. And obviously, you have an opportunity to be more compassionate to a person, especially if they are coming from a level that is below your typical level. And, and you might think compassion is not really my in my job description, but it's really useful when you realize that somebody is, is coming from that place. And instead of seeing them as inferior or stupid or less educated, you realize, Oh, no, they're just, they're just purple. That's what's going on.

Nick Oswald (14:52):
Just a different mindset. Yeah. I really, I really, although the original ideas, it's an upward spiral. I'm quite uncomfortable about the idea of saying that that's better. I just don't think we have another word, you know? But it's just different ways of looking at the world literally. And it's moving from one to the other. Yeah.

Kenneth Vogt (15:12):
I mean, it's, it's like, you know, is a cell inferior to an organ is an organ inferior to a body. You know, they're different, you know, that they're just, they're being what they're being. So we're going to talk about the first two today. And this is we're going to start at the, at the least developed point. And, and you're gonna, you're going to know some people like this, you're going to recognize this right away. The first time we're going to talk about we call connectors. That's the label for them and connectors are purple. So remember purple, this is, these are going be the, the memory tools for this. Somebody who is a connector thinks in a tribal fashion, they have, they've grouped up with other people for survival and they become all about the group. The group is more important even than themselves. They don't, they don't really see their own personal identity as being very important.

(16:10):
They're much more important as a member of the group and the group has to survive. So they'll protect, they'll protect the group, ardently, the other, there'll be all about that. They they're gonna care about their, their little world. So you can imagine just to, to, to use an example that maybe somebody in accounts payable, you're looking at them and go, man, they're so difficult to deal with. Every time I need to get something paid for they make me jump through all these hoops they did. And all they care about is their rules there that, you know what goes on. I'm there saying they don't care that it's hard for me in the lab. They only care about it's good for them in accounting. Well, that's somebody that's being purple. And, and you know, they're going to circle the wagons real hard around their own little world, you know, in an external life, you might think of like street gangs are purple.

(17:12):
They're all about just the survival on the street. And they grouped up for protection. And they're certainly willing to sacrifice individuals for that protection. And individuals even recognize that they're utterly expendable, that's part of the purple mindset. And you can imagine the kind of fear that people live in when they realize that they are expendable all the time. But we see the same thing happening in academia. We see the same thing happen in the corporate world too. You know, it's not just happening on the street. There are people that are running scared all the time and, you know, it's part of the purple mentality.

Nick Oswald (17:50):
So another way that I think of, you know, to get or another sort of grouping to look at is what about countries? So for example, a purple country would be North Korea, maybe.

Kenneth Vogt (18:02):
Yeah. North Korea is definitely purple.

Nick Oswald (18:03):
Okay. So, so it's about the collective individuals that are expendable and the collective is more and it's all about survival.

Kenneth Vogt (18:13):
Exactly. And you know, I mean that, that can have the literal meaning of survival, but it can, it can also be a little, you know, a little more developed than that, but it's still, it's the same attitude, corporate survival. Yeah. Corporate survival, you know, I'm going to keep my job, you know, really matters, you know, and, and the folks like this, I mean, you just got to provide them with a lot of comfort and you got, you definitely got to listen to when they tell you, and they will tell you what matters to them and what they have to protect and what has to stay safe for them, make sure you protect it. So if you want a simple, a simple thing with this is if you're dealing with somebody like that, and you know, let's say account payables is one example, but it could be procurement or you know, other areas once you realize that somebody is coming from that place, well, make sure you do what they need. If they've told you, they gotta have that, that A/337 form filled out, fill it out. You don't make sure it's filled out right. Do everything that they, that they're asking for. And they will just click to, because now you're an honorary member of the tribe because you follow the tribe, the tribe credo, and this won't mess with you.

Nick Oswald (19:33):
It's quite interesting how that maps to the, to the human needs. We've been talking about, is that what this is all about? It sounds like to me is about certainty. And then if you're, if you are not if you are, don't look at the world in that way, you could easily go. I'm not going to fill it out for him in that I don't, I don't see the value. Then you're, then you are violating their need for certainty. And the other choice you can make then is to understand that they need that and to, to pro to provide them with the loving connection, or provide them with yeah. That they need, you know, by, by doing what they need. And that, then that creates the profuse circle.

Kenneth Vogt (20:14):
Sure. And if you, you're going to see some, some connection back and forth between this and, and human needs. And you'll find that these initial ones, these initial mindsets we talk about are going to care far more about the lowest human needs. So certainty is going to really matter to them and it's going to matter. And, and connection will matter to a certain degree, but probably not with you, because you're probably not going to be part of their tribe. You're just going to be your, you know, you're acceptable. You're not harmful to our tribe. Certainty may be the only way you can really connect with them. And, and so that's what you do. And even significance won't matter that much to them. Cause they don't feel significant. They don't, they don't care about significance as much. I mean, everybody has it, but they care about being significant in their tribe, but outside of the tribe, nobody matters.

Nick Oswald (21:05):
Hmm. And so how, how does this map onto something like, so say you are one of the, say you are orange, which we'll get to later. Can you be, you know, are you not likely to form a friendship with a purple person? Or is it kind of, that would be the sort of person you don't feel a connection with?

Kenneth Vogt (21:25):
Yeah. Well, I will definitely expand upon that. And in episode, on the third episode of this series, but you're going to find the people that you gravitate toward are either in your same mindset or the, or an adjacent mindset and to span multiple mindsets takes, it takes a great deal of effort and a certain kind of exceptional way of thinking. So you're not going to find these, these purple people reaching out much to you. And the reason I'm saying that, because if you're listening to this podcast, you're probably not purple. You're probably somewhere one of the levels beyond this. And you'll see this as, as this is unfolding. And so there's that I know about those people because they are certainly in our world.

Nick Oswald (22:09):
And it's good to know about that compatibility thing. I think, because I don't know about you, but you go through life thinking, why can't I connect with those people? Is there something, is it something wrong with me or something wrong with them? So you can be either not compassionate to yourself or not compassionate to them, but you just, if you, if this helps to realize that, actually we just, we just don't look at things in the same way. And, but we can, we can try and, and you know, you can try and make life easier for that person, you know, when, when your paths do cross.

Kenneth Vogt (22:41):
Yeah, exactly. And you can also realize why, like, Hey, you know, I just, there's no point in my working over the top on making this be the, you know, the chummiest relationship ever. Cause it's probably just not going to happen. So don't need to worry about it. There's nothing wrong. Yep. So, so now imagine the other thing that's going to happen here in, in these core mindsets, it's going to be something similar to what we found with human needs. There was an inward focus and an outward focus. Well, these, as these things spiral upward, the inward and outward focus, keep changing back and forth. So purple actually had an outward focus because it was focused on the tribe on the group. What happens when somebody who's purple decides to take it up a notch and look inward? Well, then they become what we call an independent and an independent.

(23:35):
We call red. Well, a red person, you know, imagine coming out of that kind of tribal environment and finally going, you know what? I matter, I personally matter. I, so a red person starts turning their focus into themselves. And you think about red, red is great. Red is a loud color in independence. They like to be seen. And they like, they like everything to be all about them. And you probably know a lot of people like this, they, that they show up everywhere. And, and you know, it's funny that on one side, as we talk about red, you're going to hear a lot of things that sound undesirable, you know, they're selfish, they're they only, they only care about their own needs. They, you know, they, they want all the attention. They, they, they suck all the oxygen out of the room and you think, Oh, that sounds awful.

(24:28):
But some red people are pretty fun as you know, and as long as you're on the same page as them, then everything's awesome. And I think about like some, some musicians I know that are very red. Well, yet part of what makes them a great performer, because they've just, they just up there being themselves and it doesn't matter how outrageous it is or how over the top it is. And a lot of people look at that and go, man, I wish I could be like that. Yeah. So that's the thing about, about red folks that what you have to get focused on when you're dealing with somebody that's red is you got to find out as quickly as possible. What are they after? What is it that matters to them? And usually it's not that hard because they're not that quiet about it, but once you figure that out, it's like, well, to deal with a red, person's pretty easy. Give them what they want. Now, obviously that's within the bounds of is what they want, what you want. Its said for the greatest good, is it beneficial to give them what they want? But oftentimes it is often they don't want anything that uncommon. And again, back on human needs, they're looking for significance or what do they care about significance, man? And they like variety too. You know, that that's part of the part of the red game. So,

Nick Oswald (25:48):
And, and what about, what about the the idea of, you know, you give them what they need, what, by the idea of kind of creating a dependency there, is that something you would be concerned about?

Kenneth Vogt (26:03):
It's gotta be, but with red people, that generally is pretty transactional. So I, I wouldn't be as concerned about dependency, unless you're talking about for yourself, a right person will definitely take advantage of you if they can. That just again, that their outlook is just like everybody else. They think everybody else sees the world the way they do, and they're taking care of their own interests. So they're looking at you going well, it's your job to take care of your interests. So in that regard at any given moment, when you're dealing with a red person, you can do some things you can't do with other people. You can be very direct with the red person. You can say to them, Oh, I'm not doing that. Cause that's not what I want. Here's what I want. And the red person will be like, yeah, I get that. That's completely how I think, you know?

Nick Oswald (26:49):
Yeah. That's another really interesting application of this idea is, is how you, how you approach people. Then you don't approach her a purple person in the way that you would approach a red person just to you don't approach, approach a problem, or address a problem with a purple person in the same way as you would with a red and so on. Yeah. I guess you'll be opening that up as we go in.

Kenneth Vogt (27:12):
Yeah. Well, now that you brought that up, let's, let's look at that and we can use these two as a comparison. You know, why wouldn't I go to a purple person and say, no, I'm not doing that. Here's what I want from the purple persons standpoint, like what I want, why would that ever matter?

Nick Oswald (27:32):
I need form XYZ 32.

Kenneth Vogt (27:35):
Yeah, I got to do what the tribe is called demands of me. You know? So you gotta, you gotta fit into that too. And, and whether you're inside the tribe or outside the tribe there, their thought is that, well, maybe not in my tribe, but you're in a tribe. You know, that's how they look at it. So you don't, you don't approach it exactly that same way. But when you realize, when you're thinking about how do they think about things go, well, I got to fit into, to their little world structure without rocking the boat too hard because they can't deal with it.

(28:07):
Now, there may be times when you're realizing, man, I got to rock the boat here. I gotta make something happen. And okay, what do I do now? Well, part of what you can do is you can ask them like, what do you need? If I have to get this done, how do I do it? You know, what would I have to do for you to make that work? Generally speaking, they'll tell you sometimes, you know, a purple person won't be terribly creative and terribly, you know, they won't work outside the box too much, but they will tell you what they need in their world. And you know, if you can ask for that, you can get it. When you're dealing with a red person, it's a little more straight forward. It's like, what do you want? What is it you want out of this situation? They're going to tell you, they probably telling you already it behooves you to listen to a red person. When a red person talks, they're gonna, they're gonna tell you everything. You need to know. They, they won't keep any secrets. You know? I mean, not, not saying that they don't tell secrets, but I'm saying they will be as transparent to you. If you just bother to listen.

(29:16):
The other thing too is then you can look at this and saying, you approach a red person with like, okay, here's what, here's what I need to do. And this is why it's good for you. You know that this is why it's good for you. It's not a message that a purple person will care about a red person. It's everything you tell a red person. This is why it's good for your group. And they go, what group? Yeah. Yeah. I don't care about my department. I don't care about, you know, my university or my company.

Nick Oswald (29:47):
I care about PhD students. Lots of alarm bells ringing for people at the moment.

Kenneth Vogt (29:52):
Yeah. And again, think about how this has worked here. Just stacking these two together, a purple person. If they grow, if they grow, they will become red. That's an advance. That's a step forward. And a purple person wouldn't stay purple.

(30:14):
If it was within their grasp to be red. If anybody could be red at that level, they would leave purple in a heartbeat. It's the natural progression of things. So whenever you see somebody there and you go on me and why are they being like this while they're being like that? Because it's all they've got, they're doing the best they can. And you know, I will, I will absolutely give it to you. The dealing with purple people is frustrating. Fortunately, they don't usually rise too high in anything. You're not going to encounter too many purple people in your normal day to day work in your career. Mostly those people will just be on the fringes. You're probably going to encounter a number of red people though. They won't rise very far though, but they're going to be around. And sometimes the red people are brilliant and that's why they get to keep. That's why they continue being red because they can, they can be red and be obnoxiously selfish. But because they're bringing something special to the table, they're very talented or they're very, you know, deep into their, into their area of expertise and they can get away with it. So they don't bother to grow beyond it. Cause they never, they don't have, they don't have a need to grow beyond it. It's working for them. So, you know, you look at it from those standpoints.

(31:34):
Again, some of you listening are very few. I D I doubt are many people listening that are going to have heard purple and thought, that's me. They're going to hear purple and go Oh, that's grandma, or that's, you know, this person or that person, they're going to recognize purple in the world though. Red, some of you are listening to red going, yeah, that's me. You know, and a red person will be unapologetic about it. Like, yeah, I'm about me. And you should be about you too. I mean, who's going to take care of you, but you, that, that is, that is the red philosophy. And it is a functional philosophy in the world too. So I'm not, I'm not telling anybody you should be any different than you are be what you are. Some of you are going to realize that I actually could be moving on this scale because most people, once they hit their adult life, they will settle into one of these mindsets and they will stay there for the rest of their lives.

(32:32):
It's unusual for people to move mindsets, but if somebody does move mindsets, they might move several mindsets. So, you know, again, as, as you, as you hear more about these and see the whole picture, you know, that that'll become clear, but that just to give you a little teaser for what's coming next, and I'll let you ponder, like what would be next after red, if I'm, if I'm red and I'm looking internally and I turn it extra, what is it going to turn into? So I'll leave that as a teaser for the next section and stuff. So these are the first two mindsets that we're going to cover.

Nick Oswald (33:11):
Yeah, I think that this is of all of the topics that I have discussed with you over the year or not topics of all of the kind of matrices you've given me over the years. I think this is the one that I find most of most practical benefit or one of the ones anyway. And yes, it's definitely something for, for people to dive into. So I'm guessing Ken, that you have a graphic that we can,

Kenneth Vogt (33:41):
Yes, I do have a graphic. That's going to layout, the six mindsets, the six different colors. We've got some example, people from history and from, from current events, the people that you might recognize just to give you a handle about, Hey, here's a model of what somebody who's purple looks like, or somebody who's red looks like, and then you can take that model and, and map it to your world and say, Hey, who's like this and it'll help you see that.

Nick Oswald (34:10):
Okay. And so we will put that graphic on the show notes for this podcast. Again, you can find this, that at Bitesize bio.com/podcast going to go into the happy scientist podcast, and this is episode four and the graphic will be on that page for download. And we'll also of course, be looking at core mindsets in the happy scientist club, Facebook page, Facebook group, Facebook group. You can go there facebook.com/thehappyscientistclub and just ask to join, and we will see you in there. So I'm guessing Ken, once we go through these, you know, what each of these mindsets is, what entails, then we'll be able to talk more about how that concept can actually be applied to, you know, it's really easy to think this is judging people, but it's actually not that it's, it's the exact opposite. It's about understanding people and understanding where you, your mindset relates to other people and how you,

Kenneth Vogt (35:19):
Well, I'm going to borrow that. I haven't heard that one before. That was beautiful understanding rather than judging.

Nick Oswald (35:25):
I always like it when I make something up in you like it. So, so yeah, but it really is so easy to think of that as being judgemental, but it's not really resolves a lot of conflict when you understand that these different flavors of people and and can act accordingly. So we, we will go through the different flavors and then go through ways that you can act accordingly when you meet different people from different mindsets.

Kenneth Vogt (35:51):
Sure. And I hope we don't have to sell anybody in resolving conflict that is, we need other people to accomplish what we can't accomplish. We're we're not doing similar things in the world. You, you, especially as scientists, you need to work with others. And so it's, it's just really powerful to realize that I can marshal the forces of all these people with these different mindsets to accomplish an end.

Nick Oswald (36:15):
Oh yeah. I mean, I, for one, I guess one of the reasons this is so been so transformative for me to note, and to have this mapping to refer to, is that it removes a lot of resistance. You spend a lot of time just resisting someone who's look who is seeing something that makes completely no sense to you. Like the person who thinks this form is the, is the, you know, the, whatever, the form, that number you gave the XYZ 37 form, that the person who thinks that is the most important thing in the world to get that filled out. And you think it's absolutely nonsense. You can spend so much energy resisting that because you don't understand why it's different for them. And but if you, if you switch it around and, and realize that you know, that's where they're coming from, you don't need to resist it anymore. You can just go with it. They're happy, you're happy. And then you can just focus on growth and contribution.

Kenneth Vogt (37:11):
Exactly. It's funny how this stuff all ties back together. Isn't it?

Nick Oswald (37:15):
It's amazing. It's almost as if you have thought it.

(37:17):
Indeed all right. Well, I'd say that's a wrap for, for this session and we'll look forward to, to part two of recognizing the core mindsets, the control your world in the next episode,

(37:29):
I'm looking forward to it. Okay. Thanks everyone. And we'll see you on the next episode,

Intro/outro (37:39):
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