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Intro/Outro (00:08):
This is the Happy Scientist Podcast. Each episode is designed to make you more focused, more productive, and more satisfied in the lab. You can find us online@bitesizebio.com slash Happy Scientist. Your hosts are Kenneth Vo, founder of the Executive Coaching Firm, Vera Claritas, and Dr. Nick Oswald, PhD Bioscientist and founder of Bite-Size Bio.

Nick Oswald (00:38):
Hello, and welcome to another edition of the Happy Scientist Podcast. This is the place to be if you want to become a happier, healthier, and more productive scientist. I'm Nick Oswald, the founder of bitesize bio com. And with me as always, is Mr. Kenneth Vo, my friend, mentor, the Bitesize BioTeam coach, and the founder of the executive mentoring company, Vera Claritas. Today, and in all other Happy Scientists podcast episodes, you get to benefit from his words of wisdom to help you increase your performance, enjoyment, and success in the lab and beyond. In this episode, we'll be discussing something that may be holding you back without you even knowing that it's doing it. That is, do you listen. So, Ken, let's hear what you have to say about listening.

Kenneth Vogt (01:26):
All right? Now, I think most of us probably are surrounded by people that don't listen very well, and we'd love to fix that problem. But you know what, the only peer person you can fix this problem about is you, you have to work on you listening, and you will, by example show that to others. Some of them will pick up on it and be benefited, and some of 'em won't. And there's nothing you can do about those folks, and you can't get fixated on all those other people that don't listen. And you can't use that as an excuse as to why you don't listen. So I guess the, the, the first question to ask would be, why? Listen, what's the point? And you know, I think Nick, you probably have en encountered a lot of people that are very, very smart. And you might, they might, you might think that they think like, why should I listen?

(02:21):
I'm the smartest guy in the room. And if that, that may well be true, and this may be true of many of the listeners out there, you might be the smartest person in the room. Does that mean there's no value in you listening? Well, I mean, that's just not true. The, and if you look at the purpose of listening, it becomes clear a lot of people feigin listening. That is, they're hearing what's being said around them, but they're only doing it so that they can be prepared to reply. They're not actually listening. A person who's listening is, is striving to understand. Now, that doesn't mean that you lack understanding or that you, you're not as smart as the other people there, as you're trying to understand what the other person is saying, what they're, what they're trying to communicate, what they're trying to get across.

(03:12):
And that has nothing to do with how smart you are, is understanding somebody. You know, if you're, if you're talking to a three-year-old and, and they're talking in very, very simple English or whatever language they're speaking sometimes it can be very hard and you have to put a great effort into listening. But are you doing it so you can give them a witty reply? Well, no, they're a three-year-old. You're trying to figure out what they're talking about. So it's about understanding. And, and the fact is, is that no matter how educated you are or how aite you are on whatever topic is, is under discussion, you need input. The reason you got erudite, the reason you are an expert at whatever you're an expert in, is because you got inputs from people that knew things, and in some cases even got input from people that didn't know things. But they spurred questions that then you sought answers to, and it was worthwhile.

(04:10):
Now, another thing that happens here is that in whatever we're doing, we're not doing it in a silo. It's a, it's a social environment. And it, it's funny to think of science as as a social thing, but it is there, there's a lot of collaboration, a lot of cooperation. And the fact is, is that those people around you, they are aching for somebody to listen to them listening is a fabulous opportunity for you. Now, listening becomes then a leadership quality. It becomes a charismatic quality, something that people are really looking for. So just the, the active listening is useful for you, even if you don't gain anything from what you hear. The fact that you are giving other people attention is very valuable to them. And that in turn causes you to build trust with them and credibility with them. Because this is a person that doesn't just dismiss me.

(05:05):
They, they care about what I have to say. And as especially true, if somebody has issues with self-esteem, if they look at you as an expert or as a leader or as a, you know, as a boss in a, in a work setting or, and they, they realize, this person's paying attention to me, this person is, is giving attention to what I'm saying. Wow, that's really, really valuable. So the, the other thing that happens to this is social interaction goes two ways. You know, if you listen to other people, they're more likely, likely to listen to you. And of course, we all want that. It's not just those other people that like to have people listen to them. We like to have people listen to us. So it's a, it's an opportunity to go first, but it's a valuable opportunity to go first cuz you're setting the agenda and you're showing people the way it's done.

(06:03):
And, and you can then point out to people and you name in a positive way perhaps, and certain settings. Like, you know, when you brought this and that up to me, remember I listened to you, I really heard what you had to say. I gave you a chance to, to to, to get out your whole point, you know, and so I'd like you to do the same for me. So there's, there's advantages then to listening. So I'll pause for a second there, Nick, and I'll listen to you. Do you have anything to to offer about why we should listen?

Nick Oswald (06:37):
Yeah. it, it's very wide. I mean, my, my immediately immediate sort of reaction to that, you know, listening again in a, a scientific setting, you know, a a scientific research setting is there are, you know, two sides there. One is two sides to not listening, if you like. One is arrogance, you know, is the opposite of that as being arrogant, arrogant, and thinking that you know better than other people. Which is, is, again, you hit on it by saying that science is a social endeavor. It's about combining knowledge. And quite often you see people siloing themselves because they think that they are, they either don't listen, they, they, they either think that they they're prevailing. Their view is the, is the correct one. Or they think that the, you know, their group view, you know, if they're, if there's two schools of thought, for example, on a, on a particular topic, they think that their view is is correct.

(07:45):
So they don't listen to the other one. And again, that's a classic group think and you know exactly against how science works, but you see it all the time. So one, one pitfall of not listening is, is that sort of trap of, of creating a silo, creating a, a place where the knowledge stops, the knowledge transfer stops. The other the other angle of that, you know, apart from arrogance is that sci science is all, you know, in yourself in the, in the work you're doing. Listening is kind of the same as being open, open to input. And again, another pitfall is just not between you and your and other people, but between you and your work. Are you listening to what, to the inputs you're receiving? Or are you, you know, the, the results you're receiving, the results you're seeing in the field around you, or are you siloing yourself to that? And, and, and creating a, you know, putting yourself on a tangent which is further and further from the truth. Cause you are fixated on the idea that you are. Right. that's two, that's two things that I've personally seen in scientists in specific, you know, specific scientists, certain scientists that are the direct re you know, direct results of not listening. And they are in complete opposition to what it means to be a scientist.

Kenneth Vogt (09:13):
Right. So you mentioned a couple things that this, this triggered for me to, to no, not triggered is not the right word that has meaning these days. , that, that prompted me to, to a few things. One is that listening is not just about hearing a person speak. There's a lot of things to listen to. There's data to listen to. And there's, there's other kinds of inputs that, that we listen to. Sometimes there are other social inputs and it might be certain per a person's manner or their body language or other things. But, but there's a lot of input. There's the input of your education is an example, and the input of prevailing views on things. And you know, that, that's a big deal. Now it's interesting, I, I had asked you the question, what do you have to say about why listen, but you spend a lot of time talking about why don't you listen . And by the way, that's, and that's great cuz that's where I was headed next. And you know, you arrogance is a, is a beautiful, beautiful thing to point out. And it's, it's, it's, it is pervasive in science. And it's funny, I had, I had written down a different word for that. I'd called it pridefulness. But the implication was the same thing. And I,

Nick Oswald (10:31):
I I think it's about mean to say it's prevailing in science. I think it's a prevailing in society. Okay. It really is. People, people just don't listen.

Kenneth Vogt (10:39):
Yeah, I don't, I don't mean to single out sciences sci only, only science has that prevailing problem. But science certainly has that prevailing problem even as society does.

Nick Oswald (10:50):
How, however, before just, I know this is a slight tangent, but that, that is the, you know, the whole idea of that's humanness is being is being arrogant. And the whole the way that I see it is that being a scientist is, is like squashing down the human part of yourself and becoming the Spock part of yourself. You know, you have to, you know, so it's, and that, and, and the arrogance or the thinking, you're right, or the lack of open-mindedness is the is part of the human part, not part of the Spock. Spocks really open-minded . Mm-Hmm. .

Kenneth Vogt (11:26):
Well, and you know, the, the notion of prevailing attitudes. So let's say that you belong to the camp that is in the majority on some topic. Does that make you more right than the camp that's in the minority? Actually, no. We don't know for sure when there are multiple prevailing views. It is quite possible that a minority view turns out to be the correct one. Now, now I'm not, I'm not arguing in of alternative facts and that kind of, that kind of stuff. I, I mean, when, when we don't know for sure about something, and there are multiple possibilities, it's important for us to listen to all possibilities and to weigh them all and to take them into consideration. Now, I'd like to dive in a little deeper into how is it we do this not listening thing? What do we do? What do we individually do when we're not listening?

(12:23):
So one of the things that happens is we have this voice in our own head and we all have it, and it's talking to us all the time. And so somebody starts presenting their view that is different than the view that we are presently holding. So what happens? That voice in our own head starts getting louder and louder and louder, and it's trying to shout down this other person. And, and even though we're looking like we're listening, cuz we're not talking over them, and, and you know, and we're still present there. We're not doing something else. We're not listening. Cuz the o the voice in our own head is just being too loud. Another thing the voice in your own head could do is be insistent. That is, it may not be shouting them down as it were, but it might be just automatically dismissing them.

(13:12):
Like, no, look, I'm right, I've no, I've checked this out. I'm certain about this. I've been an expert on this for a long time. They don't know anything, you know, and so w we're doing the anti spo thing there. We're not being open. And, you know, being open to input is very, very valuable. Being close to input will make you not listen. Now, it's possible you've had bad experiences with listening in, in the past, and maybe you listen to something and it, and it hurt you. You know, when I say hurt, I don't mean necessarily caused you physical harm, but in some way you found it really difficult to listen to that. Now, it might have been difficult because I'm gonna look like a fool that I, that if I change my position, it might be difficult in that I've held a, a position that I'm increasingly looking to see to believe as foolish now, and I hate to admit it.

(14:10):
So, you know, we're, we're worried about, about that kind of thing. Or it could be something we really, really didn't want to hear. You know, we're, we're looking at the data and we can see that this experiment has failed and we really, really, really didn't want it to fail. And so those are reasons why you might cut yourself off from listening. It's like, I don't want to hear that. I don't want to see that. You know, so there's, there's all these possible blocks of why you wouldn't listen. Another thing is you may stop listening to other people because you are so bothered that they're not listening to you it. It's like, why should I give them the respective when they won't do that for me? And we cut, we cut ourselves off from input because of that. Because now it becomes a personal thing.

(15:00):
Now it's, it's not even about what's being discussed, it's about the social interaction. But can we set the social interaction aside long enough to get the data that would be useful to us to get the input, you know, whatever, whatever it is we might want for that. So, so the, so I guess what I'm saying is that if you haven't been a great listener in the past, you've probably had a lot of good reasons why. So don't, don't beat yourself up about it. If you haven't been a great listener, you haven't been a great listener, so be ya. The question is, do you want the advantages? Do you want the gains that come from being a good listener? If you do, well, then you gotta learn how to listen. And if you've not been a good listener in the past, it's because you don't know how , and I mean, that might be a little hard to hear.

(15:52):
You wanna think, man, how is it possible that I don't know how to listen? I've got, you know, I'm, I've moved up in the world so far and I've, I got so educated and I got into the real, real world and I'm in the real lab and I'm, you know, I did all that without listening. It's possible . And in fact, if you look around at the people that you work with or even work for, you might realize, wow, a lot of them did too. You know, , because they sure don't listen very good now. And probably that's not a new behavior for them. It's more likely if somebody is a listener, they, that somebody's good at listening, they've probably been a good listener. But if somebody's not listening, it might be a lifelong endeavor of not listening. So how to become a good listener.

(16:42):
This is, this is just a tool. It's, it's just a thing you learn. And it, and it makes me think about well, the way Bitesize bio works, you know, you as, as a PhD scientist, you've gained a lot of education and you know about a lot of things. But bitesize bio, you just learn how to do things, how to do specific tasks that are useful in, in your scientific endeavor. Well, this is an, this is another thing like that. This is something that will be useful in your scientific endeavor room that is how to listen. So I'm gonna break it down to a two-step process. It's pretty straightforward and it's, it's simple, but not easy as simple things. Often often are often simple things are hard because there's nowhere to hide. This is not a 19 step process where you can, you can hide in being bogged down in this step or that step.

(17:35):
It's pretty simple. It's gonna be the setup and then the act. Okay? First you have to hear, next you have to listen. So let me differentiate between hearing and listening. So if we're gonna put a definition to hear, to hear is to perceive with the ear the sound made by someone. Now that's, that is narrowing it down to the simplest possible thing about hearing that is, you know, hearing w words that are spoken to you, obviously hearing could be, could be broadened out more to, to hearing data that's being presented or is, is is being made available to you or any other kind of input. But, but the point is, it's about perception. Something is going on in front of you, some kind of input is happening. Are you going to perceive it? And it's up to you if you're gonna perceive it or not.

(18:35):
Hearing is perceiving. So if you wanna perceive what somebody is saying to you, how do you do that? Well, there are some simple things. And and when, when I say they're simple again, they're gonna be like, well, I knew that. Yeah, but do you find it hard to do? Are you willing to do it? So for instance, when somebody is speaking to you, do you look at them? Now, I'm, I'm sure we've all encountered folks that, man, they just won't look us in the eye. And I mean, they're, they're looking everywhere, but at you, they're, they're bouncing all over the place. They're looking at their shoes, they're staring at their phone, they're looking over your head and, and out and beyond. It's a lack of engagement. If you really want to hear what somebody's saying, if you're having trouble hearing what they're saying, engage with them.

(19:27):
Get more connected to them. Cause it may be, you know, all you're hearing is wa w wa it's because because your attention is elsewhere, bring your attention back to them. And you know, if there's a reason why you're having difficulty giving them your attention, well that's something you can look at in yourself. Like, why don't I want to give this person attention? Why don't I wanna look at them? Wh you know, why do I want to focus on something other than them while they're talking? You know, those are all things you can, you can take offline and look at in yourself and go, what is up with that? But in that moment it's just look at them. And, and sometimes it's just a matter of practice when you get used to the idea that I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna look at this person while they're talking.

(20:17):
And it may be that, you know, a person of the opposite sex and we feel like, oh, it's a little intrusive. Or like, well, they're not my, they're not my significant others, so I shouldn't I shouldn't look at 'em like that. You're like, well, you know, just look at them. Or, they're my boss and so it's disrespectful for me to look them in the eye, or they're, or they're, they are my subordinate that I'll intimidate them if I look at them too hard. Well, we know the ways to, to do this without being, you know, stepping over the line socially. It's not that hard. Now, I mean, somebody's on, you know, on the spectrum. I understand they, they may have difficulty with that, but most of us aren't. Most of us can, we can deal with the social environment and, and, and so do it.

(21:01):
Take a chance and look at that person and you're gonna find out it's not that bad. All the reasons you had in your head for not looking at someone as they were speaking are gonna melt away when you just get more experience with it. Or, or have it be more of your, your present common experience. Cuz you may well be able to look back at other times in your life when this wasn't an issue. You know, you didn't have trouble looking that kindergarten and teacher in the eye and you didn't have trouble looking, looking your friends and your buddies in the eye when you were a kid, you know, reengage with that because it's, it's very, very valuable when it comes to listening. Now once you're looking at somebody that's, ah, I mean, they're talking, there's, there's something else that's going on there that you can pay attention to, that you can, that you can parse.

(21:49):
So like, noting the tone of their voice, noting whether or not they're making eye contact with you, noting their body language, all that stuff is part of the communication and you can gain so much from that. Now, what I don't wanna recommend here is that don't try and translate what somebody's saying. In other words, don't take whatever they're saying and put it through some kind of filter and say, well, what they're really saying is this other thing. And if, if that sounds a little murky to you, I'm gonna, we're gonna have something in the show notes that's a link to an article that's called Why Communication Fails and How to Fix It. And it'll talk about what it is that we do when, when we're listening to people in that regard, that that translation process and how to, how to parse it apart so that we don't, don't fail in that regard.

(22:43):
Now, I realize sometimes some translation is necessary. Sometimes people don't say what they mean, but generally speaking, we're getting enough information that we don't have to try and figure out what they mean. They're, they're giving us enough clues in right, in what they're saying. So give 'em a chance. And, and the next thing you can do with somebody like that is don't interrupt them. Let them get out what they have to say. Cuz some folks, some folks, it's a little bit of a struggle, so they may have to say it a couple of times before they get across exactly what they mean. And if we are impatient with them or if we're trying to steer the conversation, we're never going to hear what it is they were trying to say. And we are, we don't lose anything. If they, if they're bringing up a viewpoint that we think is just totally ridiculous and it's just completely wrong, we are not harmed to hear it.

(23:39):
So go ahead and hear it. And opposing viewpoints often have a few good, good points in them, even if we generally think they're wrong. So it's good to hear the foundation of their points, even if their ultimate conclusions are wrong. So, you know, that that's all part of that initial hearing process is the truly opening ourself up and, and making use of, of the social cues to get the most we can. So then we go to the next point of actually listening, right? And we'll give a definition of that. The listen is to give one's attention to sound . Now, as we've said here, that's just how we would apply it to hearing someone speak. But now the notion is listening is just giving attention, whatever it is, whatever inputs are coming. So if you want to hear sound of someone speaking you, you're very much benefited to remove to other distracting sounds.

(24:44):
Can you be in an environment where you can actually hear them talk? And I realize sometimes you're in a place where things are loud or there's a lot of other people around and, and you don't have that option, but sometimes you can say, could we step off to the side? Can, can we turn off this machine? Can you, so that you can not have that bothering you and taking you away from what's right in front of you. You'll allow you to listen better. Now, there the sounds aren't the only distractions out there, and especially in the modern day world, devices are a epox on society. So if you really wanna listen to somebody put down your phone, , I mean, it, it it's tremendously rude to be trying to talk to somebody while you're holding your phone in front of your face. You're not looking at them, you're not listening to them, you're paying attention to that phone.

(25:35):
And other people pick up on that too. I say pick up on it. It's not hard to pick up on it. It's right in their face. It's rude and we don't like it to be done to us. Well, if you're going to, if you are gonna truly commit to listening to other people in that moment, put down your phone, you know it's gonna be there 30 seconds later, it's gonna be okay. You know, you, you're not an emergency room doctor that's trying to save a patient's life, you know, in the moment, . So there, there is there if, if it's important to hear this person, to listen to this person, give it the importance that it's due and, and don't try and multitask, and we've talked about that before. We've had a whole episode on it. Looked at looked at a very important study done by Stanford University. You, you're, you're not gonna do a good job listening if you're trying to do something else at the same time.

(26:34):
Now, another thing you can do when you're listening to somebody is, is to, to help prompt them. So, you know, give them encouraging sounds. And it might be, you know, just the words that we say or phrases we use like uhhuh, like, really? Okay. Okay, go on. You just, you're feeding them a reason to keep, keep communicating to you. And, you know, obviously it's gotta be appropriate cuz I'm, we've all been in, in situations where somebody's done that in a placating way or like, you know, like they're treating us like, like we're a child and we don't like that. But, but you can genuinely engage with somebody and without interrupting them, the sounds you're making are to encourage them to keep talking instead of trying to talk over them. And so they're gonna keep going. Some people, when you interrupt them, that'll just shut them down.

(27:30):
They'll stop trying to communicate. Other people will get angry and now the topic becomes something else, . But you know, either way you lose out, you don't, you don't get to listen to what what it is they were gonna offer. Another thing you can do that is very useful when you're having a conversation with somebody and you wanna listen to them is to repeat back to them what they said. And so, and they'll give you an example of that. So Nick, I'd like you to like you to talk to me about something and I will, I will show you how to how I'll repeat back, go ahead Nick. Talk about something .

Nick Oswald (28:04):
Oh wow. Okay. . I just just got back from two, two days of, of holiday. I was at a theme park with my kids. I went on all the roller coasters and then the last one I went on, I hurt my back. So I'm getting old.

Kenneth Vogt (28:19):
Oh boy. So, so you went on all the ro roller coasters of your kid and you hurt your back.

Nick Oswald (28:24):
Yep.

Kenneth Vogt (28:25):
Well, at that

Nick Oswald (28:26):
you listened .

Kenneth Vogt (28:29):
Yeah. And then, so, so here's the thing. It might be you say something like, you know, I paraphrase back to him what he said, but you could say back to them exactly what they said. So you went on all the roller coasters. Ah, that's right. And when you went on the rollercoaster, you hurt your back. Alright. You know, when, when you say something back to somebody that they just said to you, for sure they're gonna agree with you. Like, wow, this person really gets it, you know, , because they've said exactly the same thing. Now, sometimes they're gonna say something that you don't agree with, but that doesn't mean you can't repeat it back to them because you're not saying to them, I agree with you, you're saying, so what you're saying to me is you went on a roller coaster and as a result it hurt your back.

(29:16):
I might look at that and go, that didn't hurt your back. Your back was already hurt. You should have never got on the rollercoaster. You know, you know, but I didn't say that to, to nick. I, I, I just repeated back to him what he said to me, but then he knew I heard him. The other thing that does is it gives people a clue that, okay, this person is hearing the details that I'm offering so I can offer more details safely. You know, and, and they're gonna give me the respect I deserve, and that's gonna help you. So so repeating back what somebody says to them, to you, even when you don't agree with it, is very valuable when it comes to listening. They're gonna give you more as a result. Another thing you can do is a is a technique called mirroring.

(30:00):
And that is, is, you know, this is something you need to be physically present with somebody, but actually start doing the same gestures they're doing. If they rest their hand down their chin, you rest your hand on your chin. If they, if they cross their arms, you cross your arms. If they lean back, you lean back. If they lean in, you lean in. If they smile, you smile. If they close their eyes, you close your eyes. It is amazing how much connection y you both will feel in that setting if you start mirroring them. Now, I'm not talking about doing it in a mocking way, you know, it, it's, it's not about over accentuating what they're doing, but you'll see simple little things. They'll, they'll cross one hand over the other or the, or, or, or they'll make a fist or the, or they'll open their hand as you do that kind of thing.

(30:56):
That other person feels like this person is on the same page as me. And so it becomes easier for them to communicate. And what's good about that is if people often feel resistance to communication, so they're afraid to say what's really on their mind or to communicate what they really need to get across. Whereas if you make the environment such that they feel it's comfortable, they're gonna be able to say whatever it is they need to say, and you'll be able to hear what, what needed to be heard. The advantage of that is, even if it's something you wish wasn't so or wasn't fun to hear, you're better off hearing it than to not hear it if it's true, right? If it's what's really going on, you wanna know what's really going on. So mirroring will help you create an environment where you're more, more likely to actually get the input that you need.

(31:51):
Another thing that you can do is, is for the moment, suspend judgment. So, and I'm not telling you to, you have to give on ju up on judgment forever, although I wish you would. But , I'm saying the baby step here is in the moment that the communication is happening. If you could just not judge right now, whatever they're saying, if you're, if you're in there again, if that voice in your head is going, this is wrong, this person's stupid, they're uninformed, they they're clueless, they don't get it. You know, I, you're not gonna hear anything that comes across, let alone be able to listen to it. So if you just put that judgment on hold for a while and back to Nick's reference to Spock, you can see Spock, Spock is really good at that. He can suspend judgment and just let the data roll in no matter, no matter how much it jars what he already thought he knew.

(32:45):
So you don't worry about it, you just, just take it in and we'll worry about deciding what's valuable or in, or, or not valuable later. And then finally, man, don't translate. And we've all been in that kind of situation where, where you say, you know, I, I'm what do you think about going to dinner? Oh, so you hate my cooking? Is that right? You know, don't translate. They just asked if you if if you wanted to go to dinner, you know, they didn't have make comment on your cooking. They, that wasn't what was going on. And we can, we can away so many cycles by translating things, and then they gotta bother to deny it. And sometimes they have to defend against it. And we're totally off track. We no longer have heard anything they had to say a little and listen to it. It's just all gone. So, you know, guard yourself from that translation. So those, those are the two simple steps here. And then listen, and we've talked about why it's valuable to listen and even why you might not have listened in the past, but it doesn't matter if you've not been good at this in the past, that's fine. Just start doing it because you know how you get good at things. It's practice, practice, practice, . Yeah. That way you'll make it all the way to Carnegie Hall, as they say.

Nick Oswald (34:03):
very good. I mean, that's a, that's a really succinct light sh light shining session. How would you say that Illuminating session on on something that's actually really, really important. And it's, it's almost like it's, it's so prevalent in the world for people to not listen that that it's almost accepted. But in, in science, it's, it's doubly important. I mean, it, it's important on a personal level, triplet then, but it's important on a a in professional interpersonal level. But it's also important at all different layers of scientific discourse, right? Up to, you know, from, you know, discussing lab results with in the lab to out to you know, discourse within your field, right out to, if your discipline touches in that, if your area touches on that right out to scientific discourse in, in society mm-hmm. it, it's more and more you just see people shutting off from the other side of the argument.

(35:12):
And, you know, that's fine for humans, but not for Spock. Spock has to listen to every, has to, you know, even if they don't agree, Scott Spock has to take the input person and decide whether it play, you know, decide in how would you say it in fairly, whether it decides, give it a fair hearing and decide whether it should be assimilated in any way into the input, into the, you know, the conclusions. And again, you just see so many people shutting off for not so many scientists shutting off for non-logical reasons. Mm-Hmm. like, you know, this particular thing aligns with their politics or, you know, this is the extreme and it's not the, it's not every area that touches on that, but just to see that the people doing that is kind of scientists doing that, is worrying to me when you see that because it's where where else is that happening that we're not listening to things and we are missing, we're missing truths, we're missing data, we're missing things that could literally say people's lives because you know, it's, you know, it didn't follow the the norm.

(36:22):
So we, we just, we just dismissed it. But any anyway, and

Kenneth Vogt (36:27):
Anywhere in life that you do it is gonna, is gonna be beneficial and anywhere you're good at it will be transferrable. So if you do a better job of listening to your kids, you're gonna do a better job of listening at work. And if you do a better job of listening in the lab, you're gonna do a better job of listening to your sign significant other or, or to your friends or your community. And, you know, everywhere you get better at it will benefit every other place. So it's, it's worth the effort.

Nick Oswald (36:56):
It's definitely a habit. Have we done an episode on habits? It's def Yeah, we do. It's definitely, yeah, it's definitely a habit. And I don't know what, I'm not gonna ask you your Yoda , but the, the, for me, one reason I don't listen is it's almost like I feel like I don't have time to do that, but that's a habit. That's a habit kind of, oh, I've got the next thing to do and I'm focused on the next thing rather than now. And so that's a habit that yeah, I again, yeah episode has been a lesson to me. So yeah,

Kenneth Vogt (37:30):
You can't multitask when it comes to listening and you can't give the voice in your head first place when somebody else is talking . It's just how it is.

Nick Oswald (37:42):
Well, that's a good rule actually. And it's the habit of putting out rule into place, isn't it? Yeah.

Kenneth Vogt (37:45):
Yeah. Well, boy, there's a bunch of episodes to, to go back to, to look at the, the episode on habits, the episode on multitasking. We should have an episode on the voice in your head. That'd be pretty good. .

Nick Oswald (37:56):
Oh, that'd be good. That would be really good. The, the voice in my head would love that one. , the Voices .

(38:07):
All right. Okay. I think that's a good time to break off before I get a bit more anymore. Right? so again, thanks Ken, and a really illuminating episode, as I said, and is definitely, that's definitely one to ponder. And if you have any questions about, you know, what Ken is talking about, talked about today or any observations, we'd be happy to hear from you in in our Facebook group, facebook.com/the Happy Scientist Club. And you can catch up on all those episodes that Ken mentioned earlier, the one about habits, the one about no voices in their head, isn't there? Multitasking he said as well. You can see all of those@bitesizebio.com slash the Happy Scientists where all of these podcast episodes are listed. And again, remember, if you haven't done so already, episodes one to nine are the fundamentals of they will change your lives one to nine even more than the rest of the episodes. So have a look at those if you haven't looked at those already. So that just leaves us to sign off. Say again, thank you Ken, for, for your words of wisdom. And thank you, Nick. We will see you all at the next episode. All right, bye now. Bye.

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