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Nick Oswald: hello, and welcome to another edition of the happy scientist podcast This, of course, is the place to be if you want to become a happier healthier and more productive scientist.

Nick Oswald: i'm Nick Oswald the founder of bite size by a.com and today we will be drawing on the wisdom of Mr Kenneth for the bite size bio team coach.

Nick Oswald: And the founder of the executive mentoring company viera curators today and then all other happy scientist podcast episodes you get to benefit from ken's yoda like words of wisdom to help you increase your performance enjoyment and success in the lab.

Nick Oswald: We all say that we want a better work life balance, but in this episode can has something for you something better than a work life balance okay can explain what is that.

Kenneth: yeah Okay, well, we get it.

Kenneth: We got to start with this this notion of balance yeah.

Kenneth: I think a lot of folks they have these these fun memories of back when back when they used to have life in balance, you know, and maybe they got to go away back to you know, like preschool.

Kenneth: But the fact is what it was a simpler time you probably didn't actually have anything in balance, and I might say, you might say, well, what do you mean by that well.

Kenneth: I guess it starts with what is balance if we were to look a definition up for that we we don't understand it is to keep or put something in a steady position.

Kenneth: Steady position does life look like that does your life look like that is it ever been steady, is it ever been the stationary static thing well no that's.

Kenneth: Life doesn't work like that and I don't just mean human life doesn't work like that, I mean you y'all are bio scientists you're looking at life all the time and is in constant motion it's constantly changing so.

Kenneth: This notion of being in balance is a is a flawed assumption right from the beginning now now granted it's seeking something that looks very desirable.

Kenneth: You know, we would like to feel like everything is in its proper place and that everything's getting the attention it's due and and, of course, those are good things and.

Kenneth: You want to accomplish your work, you want to move up in your career but you'd also like to be at.

Kenneth: Mad that kids recital or soccer game or you'd like to be there for your your significant other.

Kenneth: And you know there's the whole thing about sickness and health, you know you want to be there with that cup of chicken soup and that warm blanket sometimes because because that's what the moment calls for.

Kenneth: The problem is, if you have other things going on in your world that make it seem like that's impossible, well then you're never going to have that satisfaction of this thing that that has been labeled work life balance.

Kenneth: So.

Kenneth: So the question then is how do you do this in a dynamic rather than static environment, you know what are the things that that you have to put.

Kenneth: That you have to put into their proper place so we're going to look at a couple of different things.

Kenneth: First off let's look at the characteristics of work.

Kenneth: there's a lot of things going on there, that you have to to, as it were, balance that you have to take into consideration.

Kenneth: And, and even only if it's compared to other things that have to do with work, for instance.

Kenneth: Often you're you have priorities that are set by others, you know you don't even get the setup your boss sets your priorities are your boss's boss or or wherever gave you the grants or.

Kenneth: Or you know there's all these constituencies that that have a voice in telling you telling you what your priorities are and you can't ignore that.

Kenneth: And you have the situation of shifting purdy's even if you got the peace with where all these parties came from they don't ever sit still and they keep changing and and again.

Kenneth: there's nothing about any of this that's improper it's just recognizing that's how how the work world works another thing you have this regardless of what your bird is, are you getting interrupted, and you get interrupted for things that are urgent rather than important.

Kenneth: Because let's face it interruptions are about the the level of urgency of in matter not not it's important and and you know if you're.

Kenneth: If you're going along and you're working away and you feel a mosquito bite your ankle well it's not terribly important but it's very urgent you'll get that mosquito now you're not going to get it.

Kenneth: Now, maybe you by us and just have a different view of that, and you're thinking Oh, those are diseases are being given given by this mosquito but then you know, there is the statistical likelihood of it, giving you a disease.

Kenneth: That also adds to how i'm how important this interruption is, but you know, the latter interruptions are like that they're just mosquito bites but they're there you know I mean we can't deny that they happen.

Kenneth: Another thing that you have to take into consideration is okay let's say I have priorities, but some of them have a long term view and some of them have a short term view.

Kenneth: And so you've got a you've got away those against each other, and when is it when is it critical to give attention to one over another one, is it valuable to give attention to one over another, because you know those are slightly different ways of looking at.

Kenneth: Another thing that can happen is is this valuable for me this particular task, or is it beneficial only to somebody else.

Kenneth: Now, in some ways, you might look at that and go well i'm not going to be pushed around by other people then again.

Kenneth: benefiting certain people could be very valuable in your career and very worthwhile, and these are people that.

Kenneth: You know they they know how to return a favor so you can't necessarily look at and say well it's not all about me so it's not good.

Kenneth: On the other hand, you can waste a lot of time serving other people that couldn't couldn't care less and actually they don't even find the service to be that valuable, so you know you need to look at those things to.

Kenneth: Another thing I think is kind of peculiar to bio scientists not not entirely so but it's more likely to be something to think about is is something a sure thing.

Kenneth: That i'm putting effort into or something that moonshot you know something that I don't know if it's gonna work out but boy, if it does it'll be amazing you know.

Kenneth: you've got that going on in your world, and if you only ever give your attention to share things.

Kenneth: You know I mean it's not like you're going to fail and in life or in your career at that, but it's not going to be very exciting, you know.

Kenneth: There are some other things that you know if you got if you got attached to them could really change your world now granted, they can change your word for the negative to you know you if you sign up for a stinker and it bombs, you know that doesn't that doesn't help but.

Kenneth: If there's anything I learned from the.com world failure is not a problem.

Kenneth: You can fail, in fact, you can fail multiple times the, the question will be did you learn from that failure and did it open your eyes to new possibilities so again, this is all part of the stuff that you balance when it comes to your work.

Kenneth: The thing is, work is in the eye thing going on in your world so let's also talked about the characteristics of life.

Kenneth: The the things that happened in your life that also need some attention at times and need some prioritization at times so an obvious big one, on top of that is relationships and relationships, you know i'm not just talking about romantic relationships.

Kenneth: There you know relationship with a spouse that you know this, this has become a long term commitment at that point there's relationship with your children boy, is that a long term commitment.

Kenneth: there's a relationship with your parents there's a relationship with friends, especially friends you've had for a long time.

Kenneth: You know, those are all things you have to Wayne and they can fall by the wayside, if you got caught up overly caught up in work, for instance, no Nice, and I say overly caught up to really put the.

Kenneth: put that in its proper perspective that you know of course you actually do want to be caught up in your work at times it that that's beneficial, that means you're giving it your all but being overly caught up.

Kenneth: In work is to benefit your life if there is no life left to benefit what's the point yeah yeah so you know you don't you don't want to lose relationships so because of work, another thing that happens in life is your obligations.

Kenneth: they're just some things that then you've got to do, and you know whether their legal obligations or their moral obligation, so that.

Kenneth: You know, whatever weight you put behind it, if you consider it an obligation, obviously it matters to you it's gonna bother you if you don't live up to your obligations, so you know it's another thing to take into consideration.

Kenneth: Another thing that happens in life as you make plans you know there's things you want to do there's time you want to spend in certain ways and.

Kenneth: it's going to matter if you don't give attention to that, and I mean planes may be things that are.

Kenneth: That are not call them critical you know you plan to go on vacation will you know the world isn't going to end if you don't go on vacation if you don't go on vacation it might and if your family doesn't go on vacation.

Kenneth: yeah you got to decide what matters there, but just I mean plans to your plan to go to the gym you plan to eat healthier you there's a there's a lot of things you might plan for, and that is part of what's going on in your life.

Kenneth: Then there's The thing that i'll call preferences just stuff you want to do you know you want to spend more time playing piano you want to spend more time in the garden, you want to you know you just like to do I want to spend more time cooking in the kitchen.

Kenneth: You, but if you don't give attention to that it probably won't happen you got a busy enough life that it could fall by the wayside unless it gets some attention.

Kenneth: And finally there's a an area called self care and self care could mean many things, and it comes down to realizing what you yourself need.

Kenneth: If you realize I have got to take a minute, you know and watch the sunset i've got to meditate i've got a i've got to get some sleep, you know.

Kenneth: I gotta I gotta get some alone time away from them noisy kids you know I have got to have a moment where I can I can read a magazine is about something I like instead of something I have to read you know.

Kenneth: yeah it all comes down to what you realize this is what you're going to need to recharge your own batteries.

Kenneth: So here we've listed off all this stuff and by now you verbally going well that's just.

Kenneth: that's all impossible I can't do all of that that side Why did I ever think I could sign up for that is I have failed before I can even begin yeah.

Kenneth: Well, and it's the answer there isn't to try and balance it you're you know you're going to have a you're going to have a very difficult time balancing all that and and it's possible that you know, some people that appear to do that, that they seem to be balanced, all the time.

Kenneth: And I will I will submit to you that there's two types of people like that.

Kenneth: One type is a person, just so so uptight and so lockdown so wired in that yes, they of course they they can account for every minute of the day, and you know there's a place for everything and everything in this place, and you can look at that and go wow do I want to be that person.

Kenneth: And I bet you 90% of your going why I do not want to be that person, that is a price that is just too high, and I remember.

Kenneth: When when my son was born Now this is 3233 years ago and.

Kenneth: My my wife is going to have to have a C section it's an emergency C section it wasn't planned there's something that was going on that needed to happen.

Kenneth: And so i'm in the locker room with the doctor and we're you know we're changing into close to be there because I want to be there for this, so they want you to you know they want you to put on a gown and all that, and this guy pulls off your shirt and i'm looking at him and I bought.

Kenneth: he's built like an Olympic athlete that it made sense to me when I thought about it, because here was a doctor that was just super wired and I miss this guy was on top every detail which.

Kenneth: sounds like something you want my doctor, you know, while we're sitting there we hear a call over the PA you know, Dr Smith.

Kenneth: Tom to cardiology and it's like oh no and i'm thinking here's my my.

Kenneth: My obstetric, what do you, what do you want to call it my you know my wife's obstetrician surgeon who's going to now have to leave to deal with somebody who's obviously dying he's being called the cardiac you know the.

Kenneth: cardiac care and and he didn't he got on the phone to to have this have where resign on call their handle it hung up.

Kenneth: And then came back and when did my thing because you know he had an answer for everything.

Kenneth: Everything that could be done and Chris the everything went fine son was born fine, although he wasn't.

Kenneth: He wasn't real happy to be here that that moment is the look on his face said, well, I wasn't ready for this well, whose idea was this you know.

Kenneth: Well, it was this doctor who had he thought it had to be you know his his notion, and I said man when I looked back and all that I thought about how hard his life must be what his wife must think about him, you know and what his kids must think about him and that's a hard way to be.

Kenneth: So anyway, that is a that is a overachievers way of approaching bounce right.

Kenneth: Now i'm not even knocking it, you know he's a he's a good man and get a lot done all that before the cost, you know, was it worth it, I don't know I wouldn't.

Kenneth: I wouldn't say now the second kind of person, you see, balancing it all is a politician and they are putting up a good front, they are making it look like they have a grip on everything.

Kenneth: But do they really and you know we've seen people like that to just at some point, they just crumble, they all you know the the facade falls down.

Kenneth: And everything comes apart.

Kenneth: And I know, nobody wants to be that it's a nightmare so okay If those are the those are the only two options you got a lot of folks will be gone I don't think i'm going to sign up for either option yeah.

Kenneth: So you don't have to do this, you can you can do it different so some of the things you have to be willing to do, then, is you got to forget about perfection perfection is not the goal it.

Kenneth: Is perfection is just an idea about what is perfect it's it's often it's nothing to do with what is actually perfect you know, sometimes, if you look at a.

Kenneth: plant and you see it, you see a flower and it just looks so perfect.

Kenneth: yeah except it look different last week and look different next week was an imperfect before and afters like no it, it was it was at the stage, who was at, and it was fine.

Kenneth: And so you know and our perspective is not always the most accurate than even even a really considered perspective is still lacking, some some knowledge and some information so if you can just forget about perfection this notion of balance becomes not quite as important.

Kenneth: Another thing is, as we mentioned, you know life happens in motion so things will keep moving if it's not perfect, this moment.

Kenneth: If it's not in balance in this moment, you know what next moments coming and and, by the way, if it's perfect right now next moments coming.

Kenneth: You know so it's you even if you achieve some kind of miraculous bounce you're not going to be able to hang on to it.

Kenneth: And then you're going to suffer because you're going to beat yourself up about it and and what's to be gained from that of you know self hatred, is not getting you anywhere and then whenever will it's never going to fix any real problems so it's better to just for go that entirely.

Kenneth: saw.

Kenneth: I noticed a couple times that you know we're talking to bio scientists here, and if there's anybody that knows how to keep things alive keep them alive it's you you're the ones.

Kenneth: So how do you keep you alive well well use the same thing you would use in the lab so i'm gonna i'm going to tick off few things that the to consider.

Kenneth: So first off you create conditions that are supportive of life, and you know that differs from.

Kenneth: From organism to organism that differs for circumstance circumstance, you know what do you need, in some cases, you need time you need quiet in other cases, you need action you need people around you, you know.

Kenneth: you're gonna you're going to create the right environment for the right things you want to accomplish at the right times you need to accomplish them that's that is a far better thing to do than to try and focus on some kind of fantasy of balance.

Kenneth: The next thing you need to do is you recognize that things don't stay the same, and things can.

Kenneth: Things can go wrong, I mean they can go really wrong if you let them go too far, so what you need to do is set up feedback loops thought.

Kenneth: If there's something important that you want to accomplish in your world make sure that you're constantly getting reports back on you're getting references back on it, and whatever, that is, you know whether it's if.

Kenneth: You want to hear your kid in school, you ought to be asking them on a regular basis, how are they doing in their classes, when you hear classes hard for them.

Kenneth: Well that's topic, you want to keep asking about you want to make sure they're up to date on and see if they can help you know.

Kenneth: Or if it's something to do with your spouse and what's happening in their work, you know if there's a topic there that.

Kenneth: That is bothering them you're going to want to hear about it because they're going to want to tell you about it they're going to want to share it they're going to want to have some support and that support might come and.

Kenneth: Just to having a listening ear, you know it's not like you have to solve their problems for them, but.

Kenneth: You know just somebody that cares can make a big difference.

Kenneth: Another thing you can do is you collect data.

Kenneth: About whatever it is it's important to you, and then you can derive information from that data So what do I mean by that.

Kenneth: data is just kind of raw facts, they just they're just their information is attaching some value of those facts are seeing seeing what's important you know I can I can give you a number, that is, the temperature something.

Kenneth: And it may or may not.

Kenneth: matter to you may not mean anything to you, but in certain in certain things one temperature is going to mean my whole culture is dead.

Kenneth: or or it's fine and and I might not know the difference, but you will see, because now it's information to you, to me it was just data so make sure that you know collect data, but then make sure you turn into information that you can use.

Kenneth: And then, finally, once you have information well, you can make decisions and and you can make adjustments as need be so.

Kenneth: You got engaged enough with the things that are important to make sure that you do, that the you engage enough to get data engaged enough to get.

Kenneth: to derive information about that data and you engage enough to make decisions so on that information and you engage enough.

Kenneth: To make adjustments based on your decision so you'll actually do something, you know, at the end of the day, it's not just thinking about it but it's the things you do and sometimes the things you do will be small, it just but it shows your level of commitment, if you keep doing that.

Kenneth: You will realize that you know what i'm in harmony that's the thing you're seeking yours you're seeking harmony harmony is way better than balance harmony, is something that happens in action it happens in motion and often happens with other people, you know.

Kenneth: there's so many benefits thing you never hear anybody hear about a harmonious situation ago wall boy did I hate that that was harmonise you know.

Kenneth: it's always good it always comes up better for you and this notion of being in balance don't you whenever you hear somebody say imbalance on something to don't immediately find it to be suspect.

Kenneth: Really Are they really imbalance and are they going to stay that way if they even if they are you know, whereas harmony harmony sounds like it's a motive a motive being it's not just a momentary thing so that's what i'm recommending to you today, so I will I will let you away and neck.

Nick Oswald: Okay, so I kind of want to get your head around, but I think the the.

Nick Oswald: include inclusion of that what you're talking about is harmony that really helps because.

Nick Oswald: You can get a sense of what that means you know, to lead you to live your life that rather than seeking for some sort of are not arbitrary boundaries almost a cultural culturally defined the balance in a way.

Nick Oswald: Although one thing that people are often talking about when they are the say you know they want a better balance, especially work life balance is that they want to have.

Nick Oswald: More more freedom, maybe you know more more more time or more freedom to do the things that they want to do.

Nick Oswald: I guess that's one aspect that struck me one a couple other things that I wrote down, while you were.

Nick Oswald: You were going through this is.

Nick Oswald: One way to look at this, I think, is it's rather than trying to sell balances about going with the flow and the thing, where you.

Nick Oswald: As a mix between going with the flow there's a balance when going with the floor and and but also choosing parameters that that of what matters to you and sticking to them.

Nick Oswald: yeah yeah.

Kenneth: Definitely and it's it's up to you to decide what those things are.

Nick Oswald: yeah okay so so then then you're looking at you know if you're looking at how to practically practically do this you're going to the two qualities you're gonna have to adopt as one of flexibility.

Nick Oswald: To be you know, to stop.

Nick Oswald: You know, trying to push for that balance to kind of be flexible with what's happening, but also be a set of that when you're the parameters, you said, then you can.

Nick Oswald: You can you don't allow them to you know you don't allow people so far.

Kenneth: Right yeah well, I mean a lot of this comes down.

Kenneth: To.

Kenneth: How hard, are you on yourself, you know I you judge mental of yourself if you can give yourself a little more breathing room, you can get more done i'm not saying to blow it all off like who cares who cares if I.

Kenneth: I live up to any ideas you know well know if you've got ideals and they're important to you by all means strive to live up to understand that it's a matter of striving, not a matter of completing because you know and you're not all going to be Buddha Christ, you know.

Kenneth: Not everybody can do that.

Kenneth: And, but, but if you're if you're making an effort in that direction that's still quite valuable and it's still quite worthwhile and still can be quite satisfying.

Kenneth: Is it.

Nick Oswald: it's interesting because I actually wrote this at the top of the page in that cross, though, because I thought this not by might be because.

Nick Oswald: or since perspective, anyway, when you talk about looking for balance in the schedule sort of thing actually what you're looking for balancing is your mind.

Nick Oswald: Is the journey that you think about.

Kenneth: thing well yeah you may have some heroes that are in that you know that are.

Kenneth: column secular heroes, you know and people that you really look up to and they might be people you know personally and you're like man, I want to be just like Dr song so.

Kenneth: Well Okay, maybe that's not a bad it aspiration, but can you be like Dr so, and so, or are they really an exceptional person that have that has some resources you just don't have.

Kenneth: Your set you can set the bar too high for yourself, you know what we will did this, you know we're in first grade, and we want to be just like our first grade teacher well yeah but they're an adult in your sex yeah there's only so much you can do right.

Kenneth: And it's fine be be a great six year old if that's what you are.

Nick Oswald: that's interesting though, because one one of the things you know if you're, especially if you're a high achiever one of the things you're kind of.

Nick Oswald: told programmed you strive sort of thing not to do is to set limits on yourself.

yeah.

Kenneth: yeah well look at that maybe you're setting the limit you're only going to use as good as Dr so and so maybe you could be greater than.

Kenneth: So.

Nick Oswald: Maybe interesting that one.

Nick Oswald: yeah the comparison thing is an interesting one as well, though, because I know for me i'm always you know I would love to have more self discipline right I don't and.

Nick Oswald: And that's kind of something I kind of beat myself up a bit about is that you know if only I had more discipline and I could do X, but maybe.

Nick Oswald: I should say and that's that's almost limiting because and what stopped me doing is looking for another way to get the same result.

Kenneth: Right, you can, and you can.

Kenneth: Self discipline, sometimes gets executed is somebody who's just entirely rigid, then they have no flexibility at all, they can't change with circumstances that they can't accept new data, you know, and those are all bad things so yeah.

Nick Oswald: I guess I guess the word, not using not it's not necessarily that the self discipline as the it's just an example of something where.

Nick Oswald: it's something I see.

Nick Oswald: I want to get an end result that the self discipline would give me.

Nick Oswald: But if I stick to the.

To the.

Nick Oswald: thinking that that you're, for example, if I had more self discipline and that would be a more but i'll be more balanced life, and so I need to push myself to have more self discipline which is actually not natural for me and.

Nick Oswald: By doing that.

Nick Oswald: By doing that.

Nick Oswald: I don't I don't give myself the space to look for the other another solution to get the same result if you see, I mean.

Kenneth: To get this idea.

Nick Oswald: receive balance I kind of getting the edge of something here, actually, you know that, like i'm trying to understand this as much as the people listening, because that was quite what was one of your not cryptic ones it's.

Nick Oswald: A triptych but i'm getting the edge of something but it's kind of more about being in bands with yourself yeah and then allowing the you know and.

Kenneth: Then balance is self defined.

Kenneth: I don't know why I just had this this song from Queens of the Stone Age running through my head go go with the flow.

Kenneth: And you know go with the flow could sound very.

Kenneth: You know just lazy like you know i'm not gonna make any choices i'm just going to let things just happen.

Kenneth: that's that's not what I mean you know it's like you're you're in or an active river and you're moving down it now go with the flow it's it's dynamic it's happening, you know.

Kenneth: It but you could use that power to push you in the right direction and in the direction it's going to work let's put it that way.

Kenneth: Well, however, having spent three.

Nick Oswald: days on a river at the summer paddling.

Nick Oswald: We were going with the flow, but it was a lot of work, you know and so.

Kenneth: You can't fight imagine if you hadn't gone with the flow but that's what that's what I mean it's not an easy thing at all and it's not an inactive thing either.

Nick Oswald: it's it's look it's continually reassessing the situation.

Nick Oswald: But being relaxed with each other as an interest, make an adjustment.

Nick Oswald: Useful yeah that's an interesting one, the river, you know go with the flow like that.

Kenneth: They have an episode and freedom and differentiated from the hippy dippy freedom, you know.

Nick Oswald: Okay, I mean I just had, this is one of the ones that I can't grasp immediately what what you're the whole of what you're saying.

Nick Oswald: So it might be other people are the same, then it might be that this is a realistic one, or it might be that we uncover this in a different angle.

Kenneth: To rent well i'm actually yeah I think we have covered it's.

Kenneth: In the past in in pieces the, but I wanted to have a specific just about this episode also there's a couple of references there's an article little being shown us.

Kenneth: That talks about perfectionism that's terrible perfectionism is setting the bar too low.

Kenneth: So it's worth worth thinking about and, of course, always go back to episode 20 the multitasking myth, it is not the answer to bounce my friends.

Kenneth: And if you're falling victim to that, by all means, listen to that episode again and it's not a hard one to understand like this it's based on a Stanford study it's a.

Kenneth: You know it's pretty pretty.

Kenneth: fact based.

Nick Oswald: yeah okay so that's interesting so maybe go back to episode 20 maybe I will go back to episode 20 listen to that and then come back and listen to this and see if I can get more.

Kenneth: But again.

Nick Oswald: I did see at the top of this, that you were the the it was your yoda like wisdom and sometimes yoda take some deciphering.

Nick Oswald: So this is one of those I would say, but it doesn't mean that you can't get something even the first part, I have it certainly makes you think and.

Nick Oswald: and try and figure out for yourself that that whole work life balance thing, for example, is not as simple as it's made out to be and actually the simplification is maybe what makes what makes on attainable.

Kenneth: Right, so, in fact, seek harmony it's a very it is accessible to you it's available go get it.

Nick Oswald: Okay, that was I thought I thought that was going to be, but more you're too late, but that wasn't too bad.

Nick Oswald: Okay.

Nick Oswald: yeah I think this is one where we need to do some homework on all the people who are listening to this and myself, so we might come back to this topic or another angle on in the future, again, if I can figure out where I know where my understanding, got to, and we can work from there.

Nick Oswald: Okay, well, that was a.

Nick Oswald: I was a headmaster as it would save you.

Nick Oswald: Okay, but yeah definitely Thank you again kindle that's just another those are the ones that normally will end up being the most benefit if you once you decide for them in my experience so again as Ken said.

Nick Oswald: You know podcast 20 would be a good one to cross reference with this one, and so what else was one to nine they are good to cross reference with all of them that that's where you find the foundational principles human needs corsets charisma factors stuff like that that really.

Nick Oswald: gives you a framework gives you some parameters, actually, which is something came mentioned in this podcast and yet I think that you could find those very helpful again maybe i'll go again.

Kenneth: as well.

Nick Oswald: If you want to go back and look through the episodes that you any episodes that you've missed, you can see those bites his bio.com forward slash the happy scientist.

Nick Oswald: And if you want to connect with us, we are@facebook.com forward slash happy scientists club join us there and say hello.

Nick Oswald: So That just leaves me see thanks again can for another i'm not gonna say eliminating that was kind of slightly pulling back the curtain that one little chunk of light there.

Nick Oswald: And, but yeah definitely is going to be helpful once it's digested.

Nick Oswald: So again, thanks again for Ken for taking the time to put that together and deliver and.

Nick Oswald: We will see you all again for the next episode.