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Intro (00:08):
This is the happy scientist podcast. Each episode is designed to make you more focused, more productive, and more satisfied in the lab. You can find us online at bitesizebio.com/happyscientist. Your hosts are Kenneth Vogt, founder of the executive coaching firm Vera Caritas and Dr. Nick Oswald, PhD bio scientist and founder bitesizebio.

Nick Oswald (00:40):
Hello, and welcome to another edition of the happy scientist podcast. This is the place to be. If you want to become a happier, healthier, and more productive scientist. I'm Nick Oswald the founder of bitesizebio.com. And today we will be drawing again on the wisdom of Mr. Kenneth folk, the bite-sized bio team coach, and the founder of the executive mentoring company, Vera Claritas today. And in all other happy scientist podcast episodes, you get to benefit from Ken's your delight words of wisdom to help you increase your performance, enjoyment, and success in the lab today, we will be discussing an interesting question. Can there be freedom and science or in a career in science to be exact? Okay, Ken, so maybe we'd be best to start off with what are you defining as freedom in this context?

Kenneth Vogt (01:30):
Yes. Freedom is kind of a loaded word these days, and there's, there's a bunch of different call them applications out in the world, but let's, let's just start with what the basic concept is. And then we'll talk about how it applies in science and how it applies in your career. So the freedom I'm talking about is the power or, or right to act, speak, or think as one wants without hindrance or restraint. So that there's several components there that are worth thinking about one is that you have the power to be free. You have the right to be free. It impacts Europe, your actions, your speech, and your thinking, and it involves the removal of hindrance or restraint. So when you, when you couple all that in there, and you think about your day to day work, or your week to week or month to month of work, you might have heard a lot of barriers there to your freedom. That, that that's not how it is. You, you may feel disempowered. You may feel like what, you're not afforded any kind of rights your your actions or speech might be hindered, even your thinking.

Nick Oswald (02:52):
And even, even out of the victim story of the, with the victim story of that, that signs has naturally got a lot of structure. A lot of ways you're, you know, you're on rails way. You've you've to think as a scientist. And so I guess in one way you could call that restriction of freedom of sorts, that,

Kenneth Vogt (03:15):
And we can talk about how you can, how you can still be free even within a structure. But I wanted to start off by talking about what are the barriers, what, what is in your way that's keeping you from being able to do the most amazing, the most innovative science out there. And Donna me there quite a few barriers to that. And I mentioned, Nick will be able to chime in on an, even more, or at least in more detail on these, but let's see. Yeah. So I wanted to start off with, you know, when I, I started thinking about this in terms of where are the, where are the first places where your freedom gets restricted in science? And the thing that floated to the top for me, it's academia that is, you know, your, there are silos of knowledge that are very specific, and then there are, are call it philosophies of science for which there are living proponents that are often professors and boy, you do it their way, or, you know, or you're not allowed to do anything.

Kenneth Vogt (04:25):
So that might be the first area we think of when it comes to freedom. So now that's not to say that every one of these folks out there are, are tyrants and they won't allow you to think outside the box. It's just that they've put so much effort into developing their box and they're so proud of it. And they so want you to understand it, which would be beneficial because, you know, they, it, these are the people that have gone ahead of you and figured some things out, but you can find yourself you know, cast into that mould and not able to see outside of it. If so so Nick, I'll ask you, is there anything you want to weigh in there when it comes to academia?

Nick Oswald (05:11):
Yeah, it's interesting because I guess we're talking about, you know, we're kind of in fairing, the lack of freedom here is a bad thing. And sometimes it's a necessary thing and sometimes etching, or if you're talking about creative freedom or intellectual freedom, freedom, you know, you want to be able to exert your influence. But one thing that strikes me is it's easy to say, you know, those old guys or girls have got old, you know, sewn up the, the make the, you know, decide how we're gonna, how this is going to go and we have to follow. But I think that's an easy way, easy thing to jump to, but it's not necessarily a valid criticism. A lot of, you know, what we're doing there is we're building on the, on the work of others. And so we're building on the philosophies of others. If we start from scratch with every generation of new scientist, then new generation of scientists, then we don't make progress. Well, that

Kenneth Vogt (06:15):
Doesn't science is all about building on the past.

Nick Oswald (06:18):
Yeah. And so that doesn't, that doesn't mean that the past shouldn't be questioned. Of course. And I always see that, that, you know, you can't, you can't just assume, but it doesn't also doesn't mean you can just throw the past and the knowledge and the structure out of the window and expect to still have, you might have more freedom, but you have less structure to build, you know, to build upon. So it's going to take much longer to move forward. Right. So

Kenneth Vogt (06:43):
Just a couple of things I want to back up a little and just make sure we understand here, the title is, is can there be freedom and science? It's not, it's not about, should there be freedom or is how come there's no freedom in science. Yeah. And my what I'm talking about here, what I'm calling the barriers. They, yeah, they are barriers to their being freedom, but it doesn't mean that they're, they serve no purpose or that, that freedom should be the end all and be all, you know, free range scientists gets us. Dr. No, you know we don't need that.

Nick Oswald (07:19):
Interesting. I I'm thinking, you know not that we changed the title of this cause that's, this is how we started out. But another way to frame this is where is the freedom in science, where can you exert you on science within this, that structure?

Kenneth Vogt (07:34):
Exactly. So I want to tick off on a few more things that might be the restrictions on your freedom in science. And again, this is for discussing these things, not to make them the bad, you know, they're not the bad guys there. It's just realizing what's the lay of the land and seeing what's there. So the second one I would point to is money. Money is very much influenced how science progresses these days. It, you know, it's all about, can I get the grant? How much can I get for the grant? What restrictions come with the grant? You know, and what requirements do they expect? The, you know, the people who are giving me the money are giving us the money. So, so money becomes a big deal. And, and that almost sounds dirty, you know, like, ah, it's filthy Looker, but money's a necessity in this, in this game, you know, there's the things that, that you do in the lab. They're expensive. So I'll throw that one back to you and Nick, what do you think about money when it comes to,

Nick Oswald (08:42):
It's an interesting one. I must be it's my birthday today. I must be, this must be a, a pivotal year because now I'm thinking, you know, a lot of the things that I would have said as a, as a young man about that, I'm kind changing my angle on a little bit. So this must be the moment, but anyway, at one way to look at the money as that, of course it restricts, but like those, you know, philosophies are the rules or whatever, the old guard, you know, that sort of thing, the money restricts where the science scores, because there's limited resource. And because that resource has to be channeled into what some you know, what some body of some sort of describe decides is the most important thing that needs funding so that the it's an allocation of the resource. So that does hinder your creative freedom as a scientist, to what you want to explore.

Nick Oswald (09:39):
And one way I think the danger is when we, as scientists become too fixed on that. And we, you know, people start to play the game, dudes do signs to get money. You have to kind of, you know, there's, there is a necessary distraction, but, but you have to play as if there's no restriction. If you see what I mean, you know, if this, if this result would get, you know, it's that whole thing, if this was what would get you the, you know, the, the breakthrough that would give you the $10 million grant, well, you can't, you know, you can't focus on that because you're, then you're going to, you're going to like blur your judgment. You're gonna, you're going to tend towards that result. That's just your natural human nature. And so you have to be spot, click and step back and let that happen. So in a way, yeah, it's a funny one money there, isn't it? Because it does, it's it provides PR provides a restriction about it, as you said on one side, but on the other side, you've got to make sure that you guard yourself against being sucked into that vortex yourself and still be a scientist, even though there's money involved. Right.

Kenneth Vogt (10:53):
So th the idea then is, is can you be free even though there are, are monetary shackles on you? It's, it's a question to ponder

Nick Oswald (11:08):
It's my monetary, monetary magnets, more than, than shackles. Interesting. You know what I mean, for me, I think, anyway, it's, the money will tend to pull you in a direction and you have to be immune to that.

Kenneth Vogt (11:22):
Oh, I liked it. I like that. Yeah. That's, that's a lot of these barriers is they act could have feel so awful. They're not, you know, cold, hard steel handcuffs. They are soft and fuzzy. They're, they're, they're warming and embracing sometimes, and it's easy to just get caught up in them and not even notice them anymore. You don't even realize you're restricted because you've, you've drank the Kool-Aid, you know,

Nick Oswald (11:47):
I mean, it's not even, it's not even, obviously none of these are restricted to science, but it's like, you know, if you're talking about pure creative expression, which is, you know, what you want to, you know, what you want to, I would say as the primary freedom here in a way if you look at the music industry, it's like, you all know artists that have got immense talent, that if they just did what the, you know, what came from the heart sort of thing, then they would meet great music, but they sold out and they went for the poppy stuff. That was just me, but I didn't know what would sell, you know, like that. And it's, it's kind of, it's not kind of, it's not an exact parallel, but it's something like that. It's like, just be the guy who, or a person who just goes in there and does it for the love, even though the money is around and they'll let them know.

Kenneth Vogt (12:35):
Well, you know, the other thing about that though, too, is that this, that phrase selling out, that's so popular to think of in reference to music. Some people they're making a living that they they're making a living in. They're making people happy when they do it. Yes. They're not trying to be Mozart, but they're making music and they're good at it. And people like what they do. And so there's nothing wrong with that. And the same thing is true in science. If you're, if you're following up with some grants that are very, you know, popular topics, there's nothing wrong with that. That's, that is not a lack of freedom. You, in fact, you were free to make the choice to I'll pursue that, or you might decide, I want to pursue something that's a little harder to get funding for. Well, then, you know, you're free to do that. You have, you can make that choice. You just have to be aware of what are the potential restrictions, what are the, what are the, what are the things that might stand in the way?

Nick Oswald (13:30):
Yeah, th th this is an interesting topic and, you know, the, it's an interesting that the, the title is a question, and it's not necessarily that either of us knows the answer to this right. Kind of pushing back and forward to find out where the middle grinders. So, yeah, that's, that's interesting. Okay.

Kenneth Vogt (13:47):
So the next one, I think is, I don't want to say it's unique to science, but it is, it is uniquely important in science and its ethics. Ethics can, can very much restrict what you can or can't do and, and where you draw the line becomes very important. So for instance I'll use an example of using animals in research, you know, using mice and rabbits and primates or whatever it is for, for bio research. Some folks have a terrible time with that. Other folks see it as is absolutely a worthwhile trade off for the sake of human life. And, and then there's all kinds of variations in between, but it, it does put some velvet ropes around you of what you can and cannot do or what you can, what you can be so public about. And, and sometimes that's a restriction. Maybe it's like, we can do it. We just can't talk about it and not being able to talk about it is a real hampering of our research, you know? So, you know, so what do you think about that, Nick?

Nick Oswald (14:52):
Well, there's also not just not being able to talk about, but it just, it's not, it might be scientifically interesting to see whether you could clone a human being, but it's, it's not a thing you should probably try, you know, as well. So,

Kenneth Vogt (15:05):
And it's been done, you know, so, or at least it's claimed to have been done. So and it's caused a stir.

Nick Oswald (15:15):
Yeah. But I mean, there's all sorts of research that there are all sorts of experiments that could be done and would be scientifically interesting, but are just not ethical. You know, if you like trying to remember what these were, no, there was no one during the COVID sort of early days of the COVID and the idea was you can't test for efficacy of masks in preventing the user from getting infection. What was that? Because you would then have to have a controlled trial where he would expose them people knowingly without, you know, or

Kenneth Vogt (15:55):
Yeah. It's like, yeah, that's, there's a very current and, you know, big deal that's happening. And now what, and I think back to like experiments that were done during the Nazi era, well guess what they collected some data, maybe those experiments never should have been done, but we should, we ignore, what's been learned, you know, that's a tough, ethical question. So, you know, and again, that is,

Nick Oswald (16:23):
Well, I mean, if you're thinking about, if you're thinking about I, you know, freedom in science, then one way to look at it, as well as I would like this, you know, this scientific answer to this question would be useful to, to to our species sort of thing, or to earth or whatever. And I would like to answer it, but you know, some of those questions you can't answer without, without hurting people or putting people at risk or whatever. So, yeah, exactly. So there's, there's a restriction. Yeah.

Kenneth Vogt (16:56):
So, so, and again, this is, if we go back to that original definition, this is about what you think or speak about or act on. And maybe you're ma you're making choices here that where, where you're bowing to, what other people think rather than what you think, maybe you don't see a problem and maybe that's not, you don't see a problem. I'm going to put it that way. Maybe you're certain, there is no problem. And you, and you feel that, that the masses are being overly restrictive often out of ignorance, even. And, and that impacts your, your science. So the question is, well, what will you do? So as exercise your freedom, will you be a champion for something? Well, you make it a point of educating people on it so that they can understand why you're making a choice that is ethical. You know, all those are, those are all things that pop up when it comes to how your freedom will be exercised.

Nick Oswald (17:55):
That's a very thorny question. Yeah.

Kenneth Vogt (17:57):
Yeah. Okay. So let's, let's get off these ugly ones and get into something a little more friendlier technology can be a restriction to freedom. Well, how, and that, that the technology doesn't exist to do what you'd love to do. You know, I obviously technology moves is moving forward and it's fantastic, but sometimes you find yourself just not being able to do what you wish you could have adapt. And I'm thinking about, you know, before CRISPR existed, how many scientists found their freedom restricted, because they just couldn't do what you can do with CRISPR, you know? And, and there are plenty of things, you know, dreams for technology that do not yet exist. And you gotta do your research in the world that exists today, not the world that's gonna exist tomorrow.

Nick Oswald (18:44):
Well, then you have the freedom to try and try and create the technology, which a lot of people,

Kenneth Vogt (18:49):
Well, that's true. That's true. Well, and you know, this is an interesting thing, too. The, in some ways, a lot of this technology is the creation of, of engineers rather than scientists. So they certainly need input from scientists. And sometimes there are things that need somebody, they need groups of people that are both engineers and scientists, because either group alone couldn't do it. And then there are cases where, you know, only a scientist could develop this next technology. So, you know,

Nick Oswald (19:20):
Oh, it's a whole different way of being a scientist. I have worked in a company that was like that, where we were engineers, software, engineers, scientists, all sorts of different things. And that was great fun, but it's not, it's not this, it's not the same as, you know, academic research, obviously

Kenneth Vogt (19:37):
Full-Service flow cytometry. And now I cross copy that, that mass gigantic amounts of data. And now we need software to process that data. And you need, you need statisticians to make sense of that data. You know, it a whole whole, the ramps are opened up. And as a scientist, you need the freedom to recognize. There may be other areas of knowledge where you need help. You need feedback, you, and maybe you need education. Maybe you need to get up to speed on, okay. Here's another interesting one. Popularity, popularity can be a real barrier because some things just started popular. Nobody cares. Nobody wants the answer to that question. That question that you find so interesting.

Nick Oswald (20:24):
Having studied slime moulds for four years, I, it was very interesting and a lot of people define interesting and it's fundamental. So

Kenneth Vogt (20:32):
It's funny. Yeah. I honestly had never heard of slime moulds until one day you mentioned that it was where you got your PhD, and I thought, how on earth did this guy get a PhD in something that I've never even heard of? And I started looking into it and it's like, wow. It is kinda interesting, you know, and.

Nick Oswald (20:51):
Very interesting Yeah. So it's good for parties though, is one of the conversation stoppers. Right.

Kenneth Vogt (20:56):
So, yeah, but you know, well, there's something that's an interesting thought. Did you have to overcome any barriers of the, of a lack of popularity for this? Or was it more understood in scientific ground? No,

Nick Oswald (21:09):
It was very established,

Kenneth Vogt (21:11):
Established, well, that's cool. But you know, but that's not always the case. Sometimes even the scientific realms, you're, you're that voice in the wilderness and you know, that that can be a barrier. Okay. Well, in the last time I had to bring up cause it's because it's come to light here in the last few years, politics gets in a way of science, like who would have ever thought that was going to be the case, but now it has become this thing where that your scientific view is based on whether or not you're you're liberal or conservative. It's crazy.

Nick Oswald (21:50):
I have occasionally s feeling that as soon as science will be the science leaks out of the sort of not leaks, but it moves beyond the, the, the sort of confines of scientific discourse sort of thing. And it starts just touching the media and then into politics and stuff. It's just, it's, it's, it's impossible to control what it's done with that. And that's an interesting thing

Kenneth Vogt (22:18):
Episode on that, quite upset about science versus scientific opinion and how to discuss it in a world. So we, you know, we should point people back to that, check out that episode, and they got a lot to say in that episode. So it was a good one.

Nick Oswald (22:34):
Yeah. I think my, I think my, my view on it's getting more and more them sadly at the moment for it comes back that it's, you know, that it's kind of like, there's actually no way to really do it. Well, there's not well, pristinely there there's, there's always going to be it's always going to be tinted as soon as it goes, you know, the media can't handle that sort of stuff very well, as far as I can see anyway, but anyway, who knows?

Kenneth Vogt (23:00):
Yeah. Well, I mean, yeah, th this, obviously people enter politics coming from all kinds of different realms, including science, because they see something, they just feel there's no other way to deal with it than to go political and no, but th that impacts your freedom in, in what you can do as a scientist. So, you know, there we go. So enough about the barriers. Let's talk about the sources of freedom, the things that you can draw on, or you can be free. And by the way, being free feels wonderful. It's great. Freedom. Freedom is a very, very desirable state. And, and when it's applied, it's just, it can be, it can be exciting.

Nick Oswald (23:42):
So I, I, I, I, you know, my first sort of inkling there is freedom feels great. W w what sort of do you mean, am I standing in a field and I can run wherever I want? Am I, you know or whatever, but actually for me, what we're defining here is the freedom to be the kind of scientist you want it to be. The thing that drove you from the beginning to go into science, and then

Kenneth Vogt (24:08):
The things you, that you had hoped to accomplish as a scientist. Yeah. Yeah. So it's not just about a state of mind, but it's, it's about the practical outcome of, of you being, what you came, you came to the table to be when it came to the bench to be so, so a couple of things that then you can use that will help, you know, in that, no,

Nick Oswald (24:34):
Before you go, Before you go on the difference. The difference that the episode about differentiating between science and scientific opinion, that was episode 16. I just found it.

Kenneth Vogt (24:45):
So it's 16. Okay. We'll get that added to the show notes too. So all right. So first thing I would point out is one of the things that can help promote freedom for you personally, this is, these are, these are tools you can use, and you will have to actualize you. If you're waiting for freedom to be handed to you from somewhere outside of you, forget it. You already have it. It's, it's a, it's an inalienable, right? As it were,

Nick Oswald (25:16):
However, you can wait for somebody to hand it to you. You can follow someone, you can follow the course, someone else sets for you, but that's not freedom. That's not being your own person. You're not your own scientist within the structure. Yeah. Yeah.

Kenneth Vogt (25:33):
And by the way, there's nothing wrong with that. Exactly. You know, we're not not saying you have to be this personal individual beacon of freedom. You can be, it's an option. If you're not, that's fine. And there's, gradiations here. This is a, this is a continuum, but it's probably not going to be so great if you have no freedom. If all you're doing is punching a clock every day, you know, you might as well be making widgets at the factory, you know?

Nick Oswald (26:02):
Yeah. Again, it depends on what you, what kind of thing you want to do. You know what again, well, if you take it back to what kind of scientists do you want to be, you might want to be a scientist who goes in and does routine. And that, that in some places that's, that's what it is, you know, and that's absolutely fine. That's absolutely fine. That's then your, your, you can be your requirement for freedom, like personal freedom to be the sinus. You want to be as much as less, but you're still getting what you wanted. So that's

Kenneth Vogt (26:30):
Okay. Well, you may be getting freedom in your own life. You know, the fact that you may be able to do that kind of work and make a better living than, than to be in a, a same kind of work that's scientific that doesn't require the kind of education you have. Yeah.

Nick Oswald (26:47):
So I guess what we are talking about is kind of the extreme, you know, the extreme end of you know, want to be the, I w you know, the person who is the kind of scientist who needs the most freedom to express themselves, you know if you, if you were talking about that person and we're talking about, you know, we'd be addressed, what's needed for every other level below that,

Kenneth Vogt (27:11):
Oh, that was another part that a, that, that is less concerned with that. And, you know, you may be listening to this and going, you know what, I don't really want that much freedom in this. And, and that is a perfectly fine position to take, but there are others of you who are going me. And I feel like I have got, you know, just the cuffs on me at all times. I feel, I feel like I'm in a cage all the time. Well, I'm the one to try and help you get out of that. So one of the things you can do that you can apply is rigor. You know, we've talked about scientific rigor, but, you know, using, using your capability, using your power of reason, you know, really getting engaged in what you're doing. We'll give you more freedom because you will see things that others don't even know are there. And, and that's where the freedom is. See it is, you know, all the restrictions can still be there when they not, may, not those restricting, you may not realize the world's available to you within the restrictions they put on you. And that, that rigor will help you find more freedom.

Kenneth Vogt (28:24):
So another thing that, that, that might apply to this that could relate to that. It's having passion about something. If you really care about a particular topic, you're going to find more possibilities. You're going to you're again, you're gonna, you're gonna feel less restraint and less hindrance because you're excited about it and you're engaged in it. And, and the details are exciting to you. And, and, and matter to you. And, you know, passionate is something to get some that can get applied in a lot of places. And I think a lot of folks may not think of science and passion in the same breath, but those people aren't scientists, but, you know, better, you know, there's plenty of opportunity for passion within science.

Kenneth Vogt (29:09):
Another thing that is I won't say unique to science, but is definitely one of the, one of its best principles is curiosity is really important in science. And when you have curiosity, that's where you start to see your options expand, and, you know, options expanding is, is synonymous to freedom. And when you're curious about things, you will see things that others won't see, and you will find rabbit holes to go down. And, and that's great because sometimes those things really pay off. And, and of course, you're not doing it for the necessarily for a particular payoff, but because going down rabbit holes is, is interesting. And every once in a while, something commercially viable comes out of it or something medically important comes out of it or something that changes our view of fundamentals comes out of it. So, and that's still happening. Yeah. We just, didn't all end with, with Isaac Newton or a Pascal, this, we, we keep discovering new things that make us have to rethink how the world works. And that's awesome. And you, and you're the ones who are discovering it.

Nick Oswald (30:28):
It's interesting that, you know, we're talking about the body or is there, what you're talking about is it's almost like you're defining the space that's available to grow as a scientist, right. Here's the ages, right? And then as, as you talk about these, you know, the sources of freedom, one way to look at that is it's the muscles you can flex to fill that space. And so if you come into a, if you come in as a scientist and you don't show rigor, then you know, you're not going to develop properly as a scientist. People won't trust you so much. You won't get so many opportunities and done. You'll restrict yourself to being a particular kind of scientist, maybe or, or more prevent yourself from being an another type of sinus. You know, one that, you know, whose data can actually be trusted if you're not kind of a fundamental, but again, passion, that's maybe a better one, because if you go in, if you come in and you're passionate and you display passion, that you're looking for opportunities and, and again, and that's what curiosity really is as well. You're excited. You're looking for opportunities. Then when the space is available, you will move into it as a, you know, as a presence within this scientific community and, and that your influence will grow. And then that will help you to occupy the space that is available. So I think that's a good way to think about these, that the barriers are here. Here's where you can't, or it's more difficult to move, but the spaces in between all this stuff, you can move it by flexing these,

Kenneth Vogt (31:56):
Right. And, and we all know of people that are doing that. And now some of these people are, you know, the, you happen to know because you've encountered them in your work and others they've arisen to, to public fame in some cases, because they have that infectious enthusiasm for what they're doing. And they're excited about discovery. And, and again, the freedom that's been afforded them now is fantastic. And, and you can be that too. Now, not, everybody's got to end up on TV, you know, and if that's not something you want, that's fine. But I imagine some of you are thinking death be pretty cool. You know, I'd like to be the talk show circuit I'd like to have, you know, my book on, you know, hitting the New York times bestseller list. You know, I great. If you could do that, go for it, because you do have the freedom to do that because it's being done. You have models out there, you could follow.

Kenneth Vogt (33:00):
So that leads to the next thing I was thinking about. And this has to do with creativity. Add when you exhibit creativity, you find new opportunities, you find new things to do. In some cases, you find new applications for the science that, that already exists, or that you discover. And other cases you find whole new areas of science to examine. But, and even in, even in my lifetime, there have been the whole new science areas of science that have just been created out of whole cloth that, you know, they didn't even exist before. And now they're a thing, another field. And in some cases, there are things that were dismissed before and now they've been been accepted. So you just never know what, what your creativity might foster. And, and this, this carries into the next thing I was thinking about too, is the opportunity for cooperation.

Kenneth Vogt (33:59):
When you find other people that are like-minded and you team up with them, new possibilities get created. You, you can, you can be part of a movement. Now, maybe you started that movement. Maybe you've joined that movement, but you can be part of it. And, and there's a lot of benefit to be gained by cooperation and science. I think science is one of the beacons in human society for cooperation. Cause the, the freedom to spread information is beautiful. And like the whole internet exists because the interest of sharing scientific information. So that that's, yeah, it doesn't matter what it's devolved into. It's still sharing scientific information.

Nick Oswald (34:41):
You mean science is responsible for Facebook. You're not selling it.

Kenneth Vogt (34:46):
Th th just cause it's got a few warts on it doesn't mean that the underneath the body isn't sound

Nick Oswald (34:52):
Fair enough. Yeah.

Kenneth Vogt (34:54):
So that does kind of lead into the next that'll the last thing I was thinking about, I mentioned technology as being a barrier, but technology is also a source of freedom. Look at the things you can do today because of technology. Look what you can do thanks to CRISPR, but you can do things to flow cytometry, what you can do. Thanks to PCR. I mean, it's, there's, it's amazing what you can do now that, that, that a hundred years about scientists couldn't even dream about.

Nick Oswald (35:23):
I love it. That you reel off these names now, like here,

Kenneth Vogt (35:26):
I know what I'm talking about.

Nick Oswald (35:29):
I didn't want to say that. Yeah. I mean, that is, I mean, that is, I guess all of these have always been in science, rigor, passion, curiosity, creativity, incorporation, but technology is what has kind of gone exponential in the last 40 years or maybe more. Yeah. Yeah. But they certainly had to have rigor and passion and curiosity and so on. And so it's interesting that as you kind of one trap is that as you, as you kind of move more towards the technology side of things yeah.

Kenneth Vogt (36:12):
Don't make it those fundamentals. Exactly.

Nick Oswald (36:15):
Don't forget the rigor and the passion and the curiosity,

Kenneth Vogt (36:18):
When I say Marie Curie didn't have those things, I meant to technological things. So obviously she had all the rest.

Nick Oswald (36:24):
Exactly. Yeah. But that's the thing, eh, in the beginning, that's all you have is rigor and passion and curiosity. And you know, like if you go back to the beginning of science, which

Kenneth Vogt (36:35):
Well, you think about the beginning of your own scientific interest, you know, when, when you were in, in fourth grade, you didn't have technology to do anything. It all just came down to it. You got interested, you know, and maybe it didn't happen in third grade. Maybe it happened in, in, in 12th grade machine, you know, maybe it happened by the time you university. I don't know, but it happened at some point because nobody gets a PhD in science without having decided to have some interest in it. It doesn't come automatic that's for sure. Sure.

Nick Oswald (37:06):
Yeah. So,

Kenneth Vogt (37:09):
So those are my thoughts on freedom. And so Nick, is there anything else you wanted to add there?

Nick Oswald (37:14):
No, I just think, I mean, I kind of said it earlier, but just to reiterate that, that, again, what we're seeing about freedom, you know, what is freedom it's about it's about expressing yourself as a scientist, the whatever kind of scientists you want to be. And the, you know that will be different for different people and different people will need more more ability to move within the structures that exist in science than others, depending on what kind of scientists and what to be, the barriers that you lead out there, academia money, ethics, technology, popularity in politics represent the, the ed edges of the, or the areas of space that can't either can't be filled by user scientists, or are more difficult for you to fill as a scientist. But within that, you can grow within that space. That's available within that constraint.

Nick Oswald (38:08):
That's available. You can, there's plenty of room to grow. You know, there's infinite room to grow really and the way to do it as as by flexing those, those muscles, those attributes paying attention to them and cultivating them within yourself rigor, passion, curiosity, creativity, incorporation, and technology. What can you do to improve that and those those muscles, those in yourself what can you do to exercise those more? There's always more ways to, to be more rigorous, to be more curious, to be more creative. And then as we said, in the end, the technology is always advancing. Keep her, you know, you can keep her so that you have to keep abreast of that. And and that helps you to, to exercise more creative freedom, but never forget that the things that the beginning of that list, the rigor of the passion, curiosity, and so on are easy to let fall by the wayside. Especially if you start, you know, they are really easy to let fall by the wayside, the other fundamentals. So I think that was very interesting to actually that, that went a different way from, I thought we started off with a question and some, some bullet points and that

Kenneth Vogt (39:27):
I looked at when we start these things off with me going, you know, Nick, this time you're going to have to weigh in and you're like, whoa, thanks for the heads up.

Nick Oswald (39:36):
Yeah. I, I don't know. I don't know that I did weigh in that much, but I thought I see, I see what you mean here. And, and I, and I think that that's a, that's a really useful map. It's quite a lot to chew on, but it's a really useful map for people to explore what kind of sites they want to be in. What, what, what do they need to exercise more to, to grow in that? Again, if you allow your rigor or your passion to atrophy, then you're going to, you're just going to stop growing as a scientist. You will stop growing regardless of what technology you have at your disposal or what money you have at your disposal. So it's yeah. Okay. I think that was a, that was a great topic set cancer, thanks for, for conceiving that I hope that helps a lot of people.

Nick Oswald (40:22):
So I think just a couple of housekeeping things to end to say before we head off as the usual message that you can see all of the episodes all the previous episodes that bitesizebio.Com/Thehappyscientist. And as I mentioned, as an, as will be in the show notes later on bitesizebio/happyscientist then one episode we may mentioned there, the challenge of differentiating between science and scientific opinion. If you're interested in that that was episode 16, and you can find that back there at that URL. And if you're interested in this stuff, if it, if it floats your boat, then we at facebook.com/thehappyscientistclub, all one word. And we would love to see a light from the year and some, and a message from me there and to say hi, and that just leaves us to see Ken. Thank you very much. Thank you for another great insight that I've shared. A lot of people will find useful and I'm off to celebrate the rest of my birthday. All right. Thanks again. Take care. Bye.

Outro (41:37):
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