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Intro/Outro (00:08):
This is the happy scientist podcast. Each episode is designed to make you more focused, more productive, and more satisfied in the lab. You can find us online at Bitesizebio.com/happyscientist. Your hosts are Kenneth Vogt, founder of the executive coaching firm Vera Claritas and Dr. Nick Oswald, PhD bioscientist and founder of Bitesize Bio.

Nick Oswald (00:38):
Hello and welcome to the happy scientist podcast from Bitesize Bio. If you want to become a happier, healthier, and more productive scientist, you're in the right place. I'm Nick Oswald the founder of Bitesizebio.com. Where we provide bio-science researchers with help with improving their technical skills, their soft skills and their wellbeing. And in this podcast, we'll be focusing on the latter of these three areas with me. With me, the driving force of this podcast is Kenneth Vogt. I've worked with Ken for over seven years now with him as my business mentor and colleague. And I knew that his expertise could help a lot of researchers, which is why we started this podcast. In these sessions, we'll hear mostly from Ken on principles that will help shape you for a happier and more successful career. And along the way, I'll pitch in with points from my personal experience as a scientist and from working with Ken.

(01:30):
So lets bring in the man himself, how are things today Ken?

Kenneth Vogt (01:32):
Things are great. We're in the middle of the three part series entitled recognizing the core mindsets that control your world. And the last episode, we talked about a few of those mindsets and I'll refresh your memory on that. But first off, just to refresh your memory on what are core mindsets. Core mindsets are, the irreducible components that make up each of us, they are our go to way of looking at things and approaching life. When you go deep enough, you'll find one of these processes that is continually showing up in your attitudes, your perspective, and your underlying intention. And you'll find the same thing is true for other people. People tend to have a mindset. And so we're going to look at six different mindsets that people are likely to have then in, in the world where you encounter them in the lab with, with those that you're serving, but also in your broader life.

(02:33):
Now, last week, we talked about the first two and remember we label these things by colors. The reason we do that as it's just a good memory technique, and it helps you, it helps you to have a shorthand when speaking with other people that know these same concepts. So the thing about these six mindsets, it's a little different than the, the human needs we talked about in the past. Everybody has all of the six human needs, but of these six mindsets, everybody only has one at a time at any rate, most people stay the same, their whole adult life. Some people will actually move from mindset to mindset and these mindsets are in a kind of an upward spiral. So they're not just disconnected from each other. They build on each other. So the first one that we talked about last week is the purple group, the ones that we called the connectors.

(03:32):
And if we think of them as people that have kind of a tribal outlook where they're not at all concerned about themselves personally, they're just concerned about their tribe. And when I say concern I want you to think of that in survivalistic terms, it's, it's not concerned like altruism, it's about just grouping together to stay alive. And of course we do encounter these people in, in our working lives and folks who think like this. And while this is the call, it the lowest of the mindsets of that, we're going to discuss. I want to caution everyone about thinking in terms of this one is better than that one, because at any given moment, the mindset that someone has, they are absolutely doing the best they can. If they had access to a more advanced mindset, they would grab it in a second.

(04:30):
Nobody stays purple because they want to be purple. They're being purple because they feel like it's necessary. Like it's the only way for them. And we encounter folks like that when know that that's how they think that they're just protecting their tribe. Well, it gives us some insight into how to deal with them. And now we know like, all right, well, if I just pay attention to what this person is communicating to me, their tribe needs. If I satisfy those needs for them, I'm going to get anything I want from them. So it's, it's, it's useful to recognize, and you don't have to be afraid like, Oh no, this person is purple. They're going to be impossible to deal with. No, they're not impossible to deal with. In fact, they're very easy to deal with. You just have to make sure that you protect their tribal interests. That's all.

Nick Oswald (05:21):
And again, guess is what we talked about last week. Ken was that it's not what makes it difficult to deal with a purple person. If you are not purple, is if you try and interpret what they are doing or saying, or what they want through the mindset that you have. And that's where that's where people don't understand each other. And that's when clashes come in.

Kenneth Vogt (05:43):
Yes. It's impossible to make somebody else walk your mindset. They can't do it. So you have to make the choice to at least temporarily walk their mindset. And you can without losing your soul, it's not about, it's not about giving in. It's it's really about, this is what works. So do what works. And you can click right back to your own mindset and you don't lose anything here. And especially if you're in a mindset, that's, that's multiple steps above this. You may look at it as like, Oh, I'm kind of slumming here, but I think of it this way. If you were dealing with a five-year-old, would you talk to them like they were a grad student? No, you talked to them like, they're a five-year-old's and is it, you know, it's not a condescension to do so it's a recognition of them. It's like, Hey, you know, I got to deal with them on their level. This is the stuff that matters to them. And this is how they interpret things. And this is how they think, well, go ahead and do that. And it's for your benefit too.

(06:47):
So yeah. Second mindset we discussed last week that we called red or independents. And these are people that perhaps at one point were purple and tribal and they did that to survive. And then finally, one day they realized, you know, I'm just cannon fodder here in this tribe. What about me? I care about me. Somebody needs to care about me. Well, I'm going to care about me. And so they grow, they actually grow into this next level of being red and being an independent. These folks, yeah, at first blush, when you hear that not great, this is going to be people that are just selfish and only self-interested. And while those are true statements about them, it doesn't mean that they're not interesting people, or they're not fun, or that they're not smart or, or connected or, or experts in their field. And in fact, often experts in their field are red because they never had to be anything more than that because they were so brilliant at what they did.

(07:46):
They got to be selfish and it works for them. So, and again, somebody will stay in this mindset if it's working for them. And if they don't and they will grow beyond it, if they realized that something better than this could work for them. So again, and we're going to definitely encounter red people in our world. They're there, they're pretty common. You know, they don't often move up a lot, but unless they're a subject matter expert, in which case they might be able to do it that way. And then they kind of become the rockstar. And you know, a lot of rock stars and a lot of movie stars are red that's because they can, because their talent allows them to do so. So again, when you're dealing with somebody who's like that, they think everybody else thinks like them too, just like any other group.

(08:32):
So they they're taking care of number one, they're going to expect you to take care of number one, because who else is going to take care of you other than you in this dog, eat dog world. That's their mentality. So you can be direct with them and you can tell them I want this, or I, I don't want that. And they're going to go. Yeah, yeah, I understand. That makes sense to me. And then they will, they'll negotiate with you from I get what I want and you get what you want. And they don't really care that you get what you want other than it's a means for them to get what they want, which is fine. You can definitely make that work. And again, they're, they're common enough people in the world that are of these particular mindsets. So another thing we talked about last week was that these mindsets move from either being group focused, to being individually focused and they pivot back and forth as, as you go up the chain.

(09:32):
So we started with one that had a group focus, the purple people that we moved to, to the one that has red focus, which was was, you know, they're individual. They go back to being individually focused then. So the growth actually happened when you took that person who was purple and made them be more aware of themselves. That was actually an improvement. And you're thinking, well, wait a minute to go from caring about a group of caring only about yourself. That's an improvement? Yes. When the group didn't care about you as an individual, it's big, it's a big improvement and that's how it is from purple to red. So I left you with a thought last time saying, okay, if you were red, you're all about yourself. You have your, your personal focus and you want it to expand beyond that. And you need to have a clue knowing that the next group is going to be group focused.

(10:28):
Again, the next mindset is group focused. Well, if I was red and I decided to get more group focused, how would that look? Well, here's how it would look. You would become a builder and we're going to call them blue. Blue people realize that, you know, if there was a little structure around, it it'd be better for me. And if that were, and if were better for me, it would be better for others too. And in fact, the only way I'm going to be able to get structure is if I accept structure that benefits everybody so that I can get the benefit for myself. So when somebody flips the blue, they feel like they've taken this moral leap forward. They stopped being selfish and they've now they starting to care about society and they become very rules oriented. They like structure, they like bureaucracy. And I know we often use the word bureaucracy as a, as a derogative term, but it's not. The bureaucracy is merely establishing standards that everyone, that everyone is going to agree to. And they're there for our protection. And they're often based on good principles. So creating a set of rules has a lot of benefits. And of course, when.

Nick Oswald (11:54):
I was going to say in the last episode we mentioned countries that were specific color because that matters as well. And the, the, the example I was like about, you know, for blue is kind of, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but this is the way I think about it as the for example, the USA and, and into the Second World War became that became blue. You know it became more about the the society and everybody holding together, maybe prior to the actually, but especially, I guess I was trying to map that on there, but in the UK, certainly into the Second World War it became very blue. It became very everybody binding together rather than people being out for themselves.

Kenneth Vogt (12:43):
Yeah. And I think it to look at it historically, as far as the US goes, I don't think the US became blue at that point, but I think that they, they were implementing blue at that point. They were blue before that. But, but yeah, this is true. You will see this, that y'all whole nations will have the same, the same kind of mindsets and so organizations, and so will, you know, universities and companies and departments and you know, so you'll see the same patterns all over the place. And it's interesting too, that, you know, you personally maybe have a certain mindset, but your department might have a different mindset and your, and your company may have an even different mindset from the department. So, and you exist in a community that may have a different mindset yet, and your family might have a different mindset.

(13:36):
Yeah. And you'll see this showing up all over the place now where these things line up, where your mindset is the same mindset as your department or your company or your family. Oh, life's a lot smoother that way. When they're different, there's more opportunity for conflict. But when you're armed with this understanding, you can diffuse that conflict or, or sidestep entirely, you know, you can, you can be aware of what's going on with the other folks. You have, all you have to do then is the muster, the muster, the courage to allow people to be the mindset that they are that, and the fact is you're tilting at windmills. If you try and fight that, and I don't care who they are, I don't care how, how weak or cowardly somebody is. They are not going to change their mindset. You, you can, you can bully them, but at some point their mindset is going to come out and, and probably to bite you if a situations like that.

Nick Oswald (14:40):
Cause it's not a choice the mindset is it's this mindset, it's, it's an awareness,

Kenneth Vogt (14:45):
Right? And, and you make a, that's a good point. You're making there that this is not a choice for most people. And as I mentioned earlier, most people stay this way, their whole of their lives. You know, they're not going to change mindsets now, as we discussed these things, and as you're examining these things, you may well see yourself in a certain mindset. And then in the discussion of the next mindset, you may see some benefits and it might open your mind and open your heart that I can move there. I could, I could make that effort. And it's been my observation, people that do that often can move up multiple mindsets. And at every step, every time you move up a mindset, I promise you it's an improvement in your life.

Nick Oswald (15:30):
And so how about this Ken, so what, the way that I see this as I've kind of looked to this in my life and people around me and so on is that it's not always completely clear cut. Like, for example, I can, I think I can recognize people who are kind of blue going on orange, if you like, or red going on blue. And you can see people kind of starting to take on the on the characteristics of the mindset, but still kind of mostly mired in the last one.

Kenneth Vogt (16:01):
Sure. So you could think of these, these mindsets as being milestones along the continuum, and anybody could be anywhere on that continuum, they could be just barely turning red or they could be as red as they could possibly be, or they could be red that starting to turn blue, you know, so you could be anywhere on that continuum. And that is the, I agree with you. It can be a point of confusion when you're looking at somebody and going this person is red, they're selfish. And yet they're the one insisting on all the rules, which sounds blue, which one are they? Well, what they are is they're red, turning blue. So understand that people can be straddling the line between two a won't.

Nick Oswald (16:48):
I was gonna say it's, I think it's important also to to sort of reemphasize, we did talk about it in the first episode, but to reemphasize it, this is a model and it's not a perfect model, but the reason it's here in this podcast is that, you know, you've, you've researched it and built on it yourself and shared it with me. And, and we both advocate for this being a remarkably useful model for understanding how people in the world around you are being or behaving why conflicts happen and how to resolve them. But it's remarkably remarkably effective from a, from a practical standpoint, which is why it's here. It's not an absolute truth.

Kenneth Vogt (17:37):
Exactly. This is the truth with the capital T is the way I like to put it, but it's a, it's a useful and proven model, and it will take care of you in 99% of the time. And it's, and there's no downside to it either. It's like, you can't really fail with this model because if you don't understand how somebody is acting and you guess wrong now, well, you're not any worse off than before. Yeah. The chances are what's that,

Nick Oswald (18:06):
Well, you had no awareness that there might be a difference between the way that you're looking at or less awareness that that's without the model. You know, that was me before that model. You kind of thought most people, not that people thought in the same way, but there was no framework for me anyway, for trying to figure out why they thought differently. It just seemed very random, but this gives it some sort of order that, that makes it easier to understand.

Kenneth Vogt (18:29):
Yeah. I mean, if people are just a mystery to you, it's going to be really hard to deal with them. And you know, it's like a bad joke between between men and women. Sometimes if they don't understand each other. But I think often it comes down to one of these mindsets that isn't actually about the difference between men and women. It's, it's about the difference of, of mindset. Now, one of the things I wanted to, to go back to that, you had mentioned like, Hey, if I can't tell, are they red? Are they blue? It's because they're probably are split in the middle. What you won't have is people that are multiple colors apart. You won't have somebody that has both purple and blue. They're either purple or they're blue. You know, that they can't, they can't span that because it's, they're not next to each other.

(19:14):
So when you start thinking that way, then you realize, okay, I can get more clarity if I pick a pick up spot here and you know, which one are they more like? Cause it, again, when you jumped to like that, they're both like purple and blue. They're both group focused and they have a lot of similarities. And you know, they're both concerned about a group, you know, one in a tribal sense and the other, any structured sense. But when you, when you realize that, then you realize, you know, there's a big difference between somebody that, that is part of a gang and somebody that is part of a military unit, you know, gang that's purple military unit, that's blue. Do you know? And just to give you a way to think about it.

(20:02):
So here you are, you've developed all this structure. There's a bunch of rules that everybody's supposed to follow that's beneficial to everybody sounds great. If you're going to grow beyond that and you know, okay, that means I'm going to have to start taking a personal focus. Again. What happens to somebody who takes a personal focus, who is trying to grow beyond blue? Well, they realized, you know, all these rules make for a lot of red tape and they make for a lot of bureaucracy in the negative sense, not the positive sense. And it's not always good. It's not always good for me. Sometimes these rules are in my way, I would do better work. I would accomplish more. I'd be more effective if I could cut this red tape. Well, that takes you into a new category that we'll call the thinker and we're going to call them orange, orange people, they are ambitious.

(21:04):
They they want to get things done. They want to accomplish things. They're not just about being noticed. They want to make a splash. They wanna, they wanna make a difference in, in moving things forward. And they're excited about possibilities. They're they tend toward being optimistic people. And you'll see a lot of these orange people in positions like, like sales, because they're, they're out there to close the deal. And they like people they want to, they want to interact with people. They, you know, they it's still about them though. They, they want to interact with people for their own, for their benefit. Now that is again, it's just a certain selfishness in that that's that reminds you of red, but it's because they both have that, that personal focus going on. But our orange person is going to be much more interested in accomplishment or red person just wants what they want, but an orange person wants to make a difference and wants to make a splash and wants to be noticed. And you know, it comes back to those human needs. They really, really like significance. So

(22:11):
These two blue and the orange, they are probably the people you're most going to encounter in your working life, because all because of the, the, the profession you've chosen, there's a lot of structure in your profession. It's necessary. Cause there's a lot to it. There's a lot of data. There's a lot of information. There's expensive equipment. There's all this stuff that requires structure for it to be functional. But you also have your high flyers that are trying to break out of the mold and try to be innovative and trying to take things to the next level. And those are your orange people. And so you're going to encounter both of those. There's probably plenty of orange people in your lab and plenty of blue people in your lab. And, you know, you can, you can look at it and see the difference and realize, you know, how do I deal with blue versus orange?

(23:05):
You know, what's the, what's the difference in how I deal with a blue person versus an orange person, even if they're in the same job. And you'll see that when, when it's a blue person, if you talk to them about how this has beneficial for them personally and how they'll look good, they're not going to care that much. I mean, they're going to, they're going to be more about, I just want to do it right. You know, whereas an orange person, Oh boy does that matter. I want to look good. Whereas if you talk about, Hey, look, we got to cross all the T's and dot all the I's. You're going to make sure you got all your, all your reports in and all your forms filled out. Right? And then orange person is going, man, you know, I could actually get something done around here if it wasn't for people like, you know, so we can start to use the language of the individual that we're dealing with.

(23:52):
And we can start to care about the things that matter to them when we're dealing with them. That is a choice we can make. I don't care what you are. So imagine again, if you're looking at this and you're going, you know what so you talked about blue. I went, yeah, that is me. That is definitely me. I like there's being some structure. I like there being some rules that I can count on. I like that we all have to abide by the same authority, you know? And you can look at that and say, okay, this is me. But now that you're telling me about orange people. Yeah. I know some of them, I work with some of them. Well, just because you're at orange, doesn't mean you can't understand orange. And this has been an observation that I've made. And in my consulting work, wherever somebody is, they definitely understand their mindset, their own mindset.

(24:43):
And they probably understand the mindset that is before theirs. And, and if there are multiple mindsets before there'll probably be able to grasp them all. And they will understand to at least to a certain extent, the mindset that is one step beyond them, but they'll get it. They'll, they'll, they'll have, they'll have a notion of how it works. So you gotta use that, you know, under, make the point, make the effort to understand as many of the mindsets as you can. So if you're blue bother to understand the orange mindset, I'm not telling you, you should become orange, but it's useful because you're going to encounter orange people. They're going to be around and they're going to impact your world. And it is to your benefit. And it is to the benefit of your group that you, that you at least placate the orange people, but probably better yet that you learned to work with them

Nick Oswald (25:43):
An interesting point that just occurred to me about feeling like you have the moral high ground say, so you had the blue person who, as you know, it's all about the team I am about this lab, this lab going places, or this Institute going places, or I'm about science going places and curing things and so on. And you identify that there's the, there's the orange person in your lab who is, you know, doesn't care for the rules. It wants the glory for themselves. I feel like is in it for their own glory, if you like, and really wants to work hard for that, it could be quite easy to be moralistic about that. And you know, and judge that, w what do you think

Kenneth Vogt (26:29):
Oh, that's completely right. Because again, you're, you, if you are personally blue, you see the value of blue, it rings to you. And so anybody in another group is going look out of sync to you, to a certain extent you're going, it is going to, you're going to, we're all going to choose the moral high ground wherever we think it is. So for some of us that is blue. And so we're going to be a little suspicious of the orange people, and we're definitely suspicious of the red people and the purple people. We just kind of pity, you know, it's just so, but yeah, you gotta, you gotta look past the, any moral assessment about this and just see this. It's a practical assessment.

Nick Oswald (27:13):
And I guess this is a good, it's a good one. Good way to kind of explain why you, shouldn't, why it does. Not that you shouldn't, but it's not advantageous to, to judge someone else's mindset, because as you said, that that's the best formulation that they've got come, come up with for interpreting the world and acting in it. And so they're not doing it through choice. They're doing it through that is the way that they see the world. And that is the way they see how the two, how to do things best for themselves.

Kenneth Vogt (27:47):
And, and allow me to, to draw a bright line between judgment and assessment. Absolutely. You should assess where people are to see what mindset they're in. Judgment is a different story, though. Judgment is where we look at them. And then we judge whether or not it's good or bad that they're there. We can't, we can't involve ourselves in the good or bad of it. Cause we don't know, we really don't know what's good or bad about it. And we don't know why they came to that place. We don't know how much they fought to get to that place. How much of a struggle it was to get there. So it doesn't mean that we, that we don't see people for what they are, because sometimes you gotta protect yourself in certain situations and that's fair, you know, go ahead and protect yourself. But, but the judgment thing, it just, it isn't useful. And, and yet, and I think this isn't, this is not a hard sell to scientists. You know, the idea is you should do things based on information. You should do things based on data. You know? So if we're preemptively judging people, it's going to be hard to get anything done. We're going to, we're going to miss out on opportunities.

(29:10):
So another thing we may consider about this is let's say that you're orange and you're now looking at all the blue people around you and thinking, you know, I have risen above if only they would rise above and we want to be an evangelist. Now it's like, come on, see the benefits of thinking my way. You're going to spend a lot of effort for little gain. I I'm not saying you can't be effective in, in, in, I will say it again, evangelizing for your mindset, especially if it's the people that, that, that would be a matter of growth for them. But mostly it's not going to work. And if you're orange, you can understand blue. You may not like it. You may be frustrated by it, but cut these folks. Some Slack, they are doing what they can. And they may not like it that much either.

(30:11):
They just see it's valuable. So don't forget it's value. We can, and we can do that all the way down the line. Now, if you're orange person and you're dealing with somebody who's purple, you might feel so disconnected from them. You do have to make more of an effort because it's, it's a stretch, but it's not outside of your understanding. It's definitely something you can grasp. And to my mind whatever mindset you're at, you have, you have the obligation to bother, to understand the mindsets of the people who have not yet reached that level. And you ought to make the effort to understand the mindset of people that are at a level beyond you and have a little humility about it too. Like, you know what? I don't get it, but I understand there is a mindset above this. Yeah, I don't, I don't, I don't understand it entirely, but I know it's there and I don't care what mindset you're at.

(31:06):
Even if we get to the sixth, one of the ones we're talking about, there's a mindset above that too. It's just, you don't encounter it very often. So that's why we won't be discussing it here. But the whole idea of these, this is one to understand yourself, to understand your own mindset, understand what makes it work for you. And then to use that same knowledge, to look at other people and figure out what is it that's making them tick. What's what is motivating these folks? What is holding these folks back? It opens your eyes to all kinds of things. Cause otherwise it's just a chaotic world and you see people as troublemakers and, and for the most part, they're not, they just see the world in a different way.

Nick Oswald (31:47):
Yeah. I would say even one step back from that, you know, if this is completely new to which this will be a lot new to a lot of people, this sort of idea is to, is to take a step back and just get a feel for those. What is the difference between even these first four mindsets or again, as you said, Ken, it's really, really red, blue, and orange people that you will mostly meet. You won't really very often meet purple people day to day life, get a feel for what are the differences. Those things are. And again, you can go and those mindsets, and again, you can go to this podcast episode show notes, and you will find a graphic that lays out the whole the whole categorization that Ken is describing here. You can find that Bitesizedbio.com/podcasts.

(32:38):
And I would encourage you to, as a person who this is relatively new to is to you know, get, get a feel for those mindsets, as I said, and then start looking at yourself and other people and just seeing how it applies, if it applies seeing, if you can see this pattern in the people around you, and that's the way I applied that you've got to be a scientist. You've got to you take this as a theory. And then you see whether it, whether it plays out in your own in your own world, as you see it. And for me, you know, Ken lay this out to me, I had to look around and actually know what this kind of works. And a lot of circumstances. And the more I got to understand those category categorizations and the more I tried to apply, the more useful I found it because the more I found the maps to, I could understand behaviors that I was seeing around me or I, or mindsets, and I could understand situations a lot better and deal with them.

(33:35):
So again, if you take a step back as a, as a newbie to this and just experiment with it, treat it as a, I, I, the reason I'm saying this is because I can see some you know, some people kind of discounting this as a, well, what is this based on? Just take it as it as a, as a theory that you can test in your own life in an experimental way and see if it works for you this way. And that will be the same for a lot of the concepts that Ken puts forward. Here are the models that you can test to see whether they work in your life.

Kenneth Vogt (34:12):
Sure. You can probably hear that very red cat in the background here, yelling at me. This is the thing you could do. You can look at situations in your world and you can look at things in the past too. So look at conflicts of failures in the past and say, okay, if I were to look at the players involved here and see what mindset were they at at this time, you may find that revelations come to you. It's like, ah, this is why this all came apart. This is where all the stresses were. This is where all the miscommunication happened. And, and you know, at the beginning of this, I gave you the name of the three PhD scientists who, who came up with a basis for these theories. But I completely agree with what Nick said, you know, what, who cares about them? Do your own study, find out for yourself that this works because I, you know, I am a computer scientist personally. I'm not a biologist. I I've learned a great deal from working with, with bioscientist though over these last several years. And, and I've learned some things about how you all think, and I think there's really something to be said for that. His data is interesting, but my data is really interesting. So you have make, you make use of that bias. You have to,

(35:38):
To for your own benefit here in how we look at these things. Now, there are still two more mindsets we're going to discuss. We're going to discuss that in the next podcast. And again, I will leave you with that teaser. Remember we stopped it. We stopped at orange. So here is this orange person who has got a personal focus. What if they turn the focus back toward the group, what would they become? So that's what we'll discuss when we get back to next week. And I know we hit blue and orange. They are absolutely the center, but the ones they're the one that comes next is also going to be a very interesting one to you. And you think you're going to recognize some, some wonderful people, some great people, some, some of the most important people in your world are the next level we'll talk about next week.

(36:27):
So that's it for core mindsets for today.

Nick Oswald (36:30):
Okay. And again, as I said, if you want to see the summary of how the course mindset are mapped out, then go to Bitesizebio.com/podcasts. Find the happy scientist podcast page. And I believe we are on episode five. So go to the that go to episode five and you'll find the link to that graphic in the show notes. And we will also be discussing these concepts and others in the happy scientist club, Facebook page, what you can find at Facebook, facebook.com/thehappyscientistclub. Just ask us to join and we will let you in there and there'll be all sorts of other stuff going on in there that I think you'll find interesting. All right. Excellent. So I think we'll wrap up for today and we will see you next time for the last two of the core mindsets until next time.

Kenneth Vogt (37:22):
All right. Thanks everybody.

Nick Oswald (37:23):
Bye.

Intro/Outro (37:30):
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