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Intro/outro (00:04):
This is The Happy Scientist podcast. Each episode is designed to make you more focused, more productive, and more satisfied in the lab. You can find us online at bitesizebio.com/happyscientist. Your host are Kenneth Vogt, founder of the executive coaching firm, Vera Claritas and Dr. Nick Oswald, PhD bioscientist and founder of Bitesize Bio.

Kenneth Vogt (00:35):
Hello, this is Kenneth Vogt, and I've got a special guest today. Nick's not with us, but Adam Pawson is. And the reason why you're gonna care about Adam Pawson being here is because Adam Pawson is the senior managing editor for Bitesize Bio. So the topic today is how to become senior managing editor for Bitesize Bio. And you might think, wow, that's rather specific and it, it kind of is cause, I, I wanted to, I wanted to go down this path of how does somebody get a serious position in science, outside of the lab where they've, you know, where they've decided that they're gonna do something different, but they wanna stay in science. And I know that that's an issue for many of the listeners. If they wanna be a happy scientist, they gotta get out of the lab. That's just a fact that's not true for many scientists obviously, but it is for a substantial portion.

(01:37):
And some of them see it as a failure. If I leave the lab, well then I'm no longer really a scientist. But that's not true. There are, there are many, many career choices out there that, that are involved with being in science that requires someone who's got the scientific background to do what needs to be done. See, there's a reason why I'm not senior managing editor for Bitesize Bio cause I'm not qualified. I'm I'm not a scientist as I've, I've mentioned many times on the podcast, but Adam Pawson is. So we're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna take apart how he got here and you know, what came before this and hopefully it'll, it'll give folks some ideas about what they might do with their own careers and also give some folks some hope that are feeling like, I, I don't know if I can keep doing this and, and they don't wanna end up at Burger King. So we're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna dig into what, what Adam has, has been down the road with. So I, I was looking at, at Adam's LinkedIn profile and there he describes himself as a pharmacologist bio curator. And bioinformatician if I'm pronouncing that right. Yeah. Now I know what a pharmacologist is, but those last two were not as obvious to me. So maybe you could define them for us

Adam Pawson (03:11):
Okay. Well I think in my case, actually bio curator and bioinformatician are pretty much the same thing and I really need to update my LinkedIn profile. Uh the, the bioinformatician is there for a reason. It, it, it, it makes my profile sound a bit more exciting, but the reason I chose to include both was because I was job hunting after my previous role at, at the University of Edinburgh where I was the senior database curator for an open access expert curator online resource called the guide to pharmacology which captures quantitative pharmacological parameters and information about biological targets and drugs and approved drugs, experimental drugs and other molecules. And the reason I added bioinformatician in there is because actually broadly speaking, a bioinformatician uses tools to understand and solve biological problems and, and help develop, you know, tools.

(04:26):
And there's, there's there's two categories, really the one are the developers, you know, those that are trained in, in, in computer languages and, you know, coding, which I have absolutely no training in, but then there's another category which is the bio or, you know, curators, people that are responsible for you know capturing data into, you know, and integrating data into databases. And so that's primarily what, you know, what I did you know, by curation, which is organizing and standardizing biological data in my case pharmacological data. So that it's useful for researchers. So yeah, I mean, I think a lot of people recognize bioinformatician would, you know, would, would be those that are trained in, in coding. So I'm not one of those. So I really should remove that. It was for job hunting, Ken

(05:27):
Well, it was the bio, it was the bio part that caught me, cuz I actually, I could have been your database guy on that, that particular gig. That's my background, but but

(05:39):
Well, but,

Kenneth Vogt (05:40):
Well, I guess what this is pointing out here that this, this type of, of position that you had, you know, before Bitesize Bio at University of Edinburgh that required a PhD scientist, that was, and a PhD biologist, you know, not just, not just anything. And that background is what made it possible for you to put together a database and curate a database in such a way that it would benefit researchers because you knew you'd been there, you'd been at the bench, you know, you, you knew what they were up against and you knew what they needed.

Adam Pawson (06:16):
Yeah, that's right. Yeah.

Kenneth Vogt (06:20):
So, so after years of doing that, though, you decided to make the move to Bitesize Bio, which is also kind of a, a curating kind of position, but it's quite different. So, so how did you, how did you end up at Bitesize Bio? What exactly are you doing here now?

Adam Pawson (06:40):
Okay. Well, I mean probably a bit of context you know, so there's two managing editors at Bitesize Bio, there's, Laura Grassie and, and, and, and me and together, we you know, we, we oversee the, the running of the whole editorial department at Bitesize Bio or all the processes involved in, in generating, you know, high quality articles and content and copy that, you know, that we produce. And so Laura largely oversees the in-house editorial projects, working with writers to create, you know, to produce all the great articles that go on our, our blog, you know, the, the how to, and the, how it works and the troubleshooting guides and all the tips and that, and lots of fun stuff to, to help researchers do what they do, you know, planning experiments and performing them and analyzing data. And, you know, and then Laura's been with bar buyers since the beginning, I think, nearly

(07:42):
15 years or something. So she's, she's also really great at ensuring that the Bitesize Bio's voice gets injected into all the, the, you know, the, the copy and the content that we create. And so that's Laura. Okay. So on, on my side is I, I oversee, you know, running all the client editorial projects primarily. And so that's serving you know, the, the companies that come to us you know, with with the idea of running a webinar or you know, something like that. And, and so, so my role is to, is to serve those clients. And, you know, at the same time inspire our community of, of, of bio scientists. You know, the people that regularly visit Bitesize Bio and you know, as you know, we do a lot of a huge amount of client work and you know, so the role there is to help the client target their audience and build their brand and deliver their message.

(08:46):
And that includes, you know, through webinars, podcasts like this, and application notes and technical articles, and then all the other stuff like newsletters and emails, adverts, and social posts and, and, and that, and, and all that needs content and copy that needs to be generated. And, and that's what I do together with, you know, with the rest of the editorial team. And the other departments at Bitesize Bio, you know, like the design team and the projects team that run all the live events. And the challenge there is to is to distill the client's message and the, you know, the clients know how into something that's gonna be a benefit to our community, you know, turn it into a how two and capturing those benefits and identifying problems that researchers might encounter in the lab and determining how the client's product or service is gonna help them solve those problems and getting that message across.

(09:47):
And then, you know, as I mentioned with Laura's help injecting the, the friendly, you know, Bitesize Bio voice into that, into that, that, that message to make it engaging and compelling. So that's, that's my pri- you know, my primary role, but I'm also like sort of the main organizer in the editorial department, you know, facilitating processes and putting systems in place to help ensure that everyone in the editorial team has access to the tools and resources they need in order to achieve what they, what they do very well in the most efficient way possible.

Kenneth Vogt (10:26):
Sure. So many of the things we talk about on this podcast have to do with the called the extra science part of many of these careers, where, you know, as, as you just mentioned, I mean, you, you have to be more than a manager. You gotta be a director you've gotta, you, you've gotta do more than just the science. It, it's a, it's an important part of the, of, of the job. And it's a critical thing to the company. We need people who can do that to at bitesize body to get those kind of things done. And, you know, if you hadn't already come with some of those skills things would be a lot more difficult and, you know, it's like you mentioned about Laura is familiar with the voice of Bitesize Bio, which is very useful. Laura is also a PhD scientist, and she's familiar with the voice, and that's also a very useful thing, but you bring something additional to the table, which is why we needed you.

(11:26):
We, and we need, we needed someone like you, but you were uniquely qualified cause you already had management experience and, and project experience. And you know, these are additional skills beyond your lab skills that matter, that had to, that have to be there if you're gonna develop your career. So this got me thinking, you know, as I was looking at your resume and the things you've done and all the way back to, you know, university in Cape Town, you know, you've a, you're a man of the world. Did, did you, was this a plan for you? Did, was this what you were thinking at, from the beginning of your career, I'm gonna end up out of the lab and doing something completely different with my career? Is that how you saw it going?

Adam Pawson (12:13):
No, absolutely not. Never. yeah, you know, I'd, I've throughout my, my research career. I'd, I've always, you know you know, editorial work you know ha ha has always been very at attractive to me, you know, the high standards required and, and, and processes. And I I've always been aware of them. You know, as a, as a research scientist, I mean, I, you know, I was on a few journal editorial boards, you know in, in the latter years of, of my, of my research work and I found that really gratifying. It certainly wasn't something that I set out to do when I left school and went to university. But you know, I think when I, when I moved into the the bio curation at the database that then required also a lot of additional writing, you know, not writing scientific papers, but you know, producing overviews and, and introduc introductions to, to you know, the, the material that was on the database. And you know, so at that point you know, again, it, the, the idea of editorial work you know, came to a foreign and yeah, so I've, I've always been interested in it, but it was certainly not something that I set out to do when I, when I went to university.

Kenneth Vogt (13:47):
Sure. But you did keep an open mind as, as your career was expanding and it allowed you to see some opportunities that might not have been obvious earlier.

Adam Pawson (13:58):
Oh, absolutely. You know, and the you know, one of the first things that, that was highlighted to me when I, when I finished my, my research career you know, was that there's the, the science writer opportunity out there. And I briefly explored it. But you know, I in, in the few months between between jobs, but it didn't really get any traction there. And, you know, and then I found that the curator job, but, you know, it was certainly highlighted that, you know, becoming a science writer is an option if you leave research. Yeah.

Kenneth Vogt (14:35):
Right. So, so that's a question to ask. Did, do you feel like you left research or were you going to something else?

Adam Pawson (14:45):
Hmm, that's an interesting, interesting question. I the way it all happened, Ken was, I felt like I was booted out of research Yeah. Yeah, the, the, the way things sort of panned out, I mean we had you know, I, I, I did my postdoc when I finished my PhD in Cape town. I came over to Edinburgh and did a postdoc with a me medical research council. And I was supposed to go back to you know, to Cape Town after a couple of years, but I, I managed to figure out a way to, to stay on and, and with the, with the MRC. And eventually, I, I, you know, I was moved after a few years, I was moved onto career track position as a senior investigator scientist. And eventually I had, you know, a couple of PhD students and a postdoc, and the next step was gonna be, you know, running, running a lab, you know? And and then we had what they called a, a Quinquennial review, the MRC conduct, these strategic reviews every five years for, for each of their units in the UK.

(15:59):
And they shut us down. You know it was a, a very long painful process over, over a whole year. And most of us were made redundant a few of the senior scientists were moved into university positions, but yeah, I wasn't one of them. And so yeah, I felt like I was booted out at the time. I, I was not prepared to, to start from scratch as a postdoc, you know, junior postdoc again, and there were no positions in Edinburgh, Glasgow, or Newcastle that I was particularly interested in any, in any case. And I was, I was settled in the area with my partners. So moving further afield really wasn't an option. So yeah, so that's how it happened.

Kenneth Vogt (16:49):
Okay. Well, what, what, one of the things that comes to mind here is that the reason you still had prospects is because they were, you had built them in already. You had kept your interests in, you know, broad enough that you, you weren't so styl. I said, look, I gotta be in a lab. In fact, I gotta be in this lab. And you know, you still, you still could shift and take your career somewhere, cause these kind of things happen, stuff that you don't anticipate and often don't have anything to do with you. They drop in on you and now your career has now been sidetracked and you're thinking, where did I go wrong? And, and you didn't really go wrong anywhere. You, we "time and unforeseen occurrence befall us all" is what Solomon said. And, and it's so true, but you know, you, so you landed on your feet though. That's, that's interesting and well, not just interesting. It's not surprising, honestly, at this point I I've had enough interaction with you that yeah, I, I suspect you can, you can pivot if necessary, but I did not. I had noticed that from again, from your LinkedIn profile, you still, you still do some publishing yourself though. So what is it is why are you doing that and or maybe why is that important to you?

Adam Pawson (18:10):
Well it, it's not as important as it used to be. And you know, obviously when you, when you're in research you know, and applying for grants and, and funding, it's very important to have the publications but to be honest most of the, well, in fact, all the, the most recent publications can, are as a result of, you know, my contributions to various projects at the end of, of, you know, my previous role at, at the, at the guard to pharmacology database. So yeah, unfortunately those are gonna dry up. Well, I say unfortunately, I mean, it's, you know, that's, that's just how it is

Kenneth Vogt (18:51):
How the cookie crumbled.

Adam Pawson (18:52):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, what I, what I really need to do now is, is start focusing on publishing you know articles on, on, on the Bitesize Bio blog blog. I mean, I, I haven't published a single one yet. I've been with Bitesize Bio for a year and that needs to change. I just need to make the time Laura's been very patient with me and Nick I'm sure too. So...

Kenneth Vogt (19:18):
Well, I, I will, I will encourage them both to less patient cause yes, I, I, I think it would be fantastic to, to see something from you at Bitesize Bio specifically. Yeah, so this, this all kinda leads back into something that we had, we had back and forth about a little bit on an email, this, this, the notion of imposter syndrome. And it seems to be a, a big issue for a lot of highly educated people, not just scientists, but you know, I mean, you've been doing this a long time now you've been, you know, professional, a professional scientist by any definition for at least 20 years. Do you feel like you no longer have to prove that that you're competent? Do you feel like you're no longer faking it and somebody's gonna call you out?

Adam Pawson (20:12):
Well, I guess so I, I, I don't really know. I think you know I do sometimes still you know, dark, dark my abilities and, and to be honest, I think perhaps that's, that's because, you know, I've, I've started a, a new role, I mean, okay, I'm a year into it, but there's still a lot to learn. So you know, maybe the new transition which I love by the way is you know, does, you know, make me make me doubt my abilities at times, but at times, but I think, you know, that that's probably normal for anyone starting in a new role. But I, you know, I think you know, the other thing is I I've always been a perfectionist. You know, I'm a Virgo, if you, if you believe in that kind of thing, I, I don't and you know, and

Kenneth Vogt (21:07):
It's worth, it's worth mentioning, but I don't believe it for a minute, but it's worth mentioning.

Adam Pawson (21:12):
Well the, you know, and, and, and maybe you know, because you're always, you know, you're aiming for perfection, but you're never gonna achieve it. So you, you, you, you're setting yourself up for, you know, for, for, for failure or, you know, being disappointed with yourself. So yeah, I mean, I, to be honest, I'd never heard of imposter syndrome until I came to Bitesize Bio I listened to a podcast but it makes a lot

Kenneth Vogt (21:45):
Sense. And for those who would like to hear that podcast, it was called getting past imposter syndrome. It was episode 10 and we'll have it in the show notes.

Adam Pawson (21:55):
Yeah. I mean, you know, the only thing is I, I think that I do feel like I've been very lucky throughout my career. I, you know, I've, I've had amazing opportunities. It's not that I haven't worked for them but I have had doors opened, you know, for me you know, in, in the, the few career transitions that I've had. And, you know, and these have, these opportunities have, have really presented themselves themselves to me because I've had connections. You know, that, that have sort of, you know, opened those doors. And you know, even though I had to apply and, and prepare and interview for those roles you know, I, I had connections there and I, there's nothing wrong with that, I guess.

Kenneth Vogt (22:48):
Well, of course, and, and, and I, you're being a bit modest there, you fostered those connections and you earned those connections. It's not just like, well, I just happened to be it's, it's not like my daddy knew somebody, you know.

Adam Pawson (23:02):
Yeah. Well, well said there that's a good way of looking at it. I'll remember that fostering them. Yeah,

Kenneth Vogt (23:07):
Definitely. And it points to another episode that I, I will also be, to show us, "does humility harm your career?" Episode 40 so... So you know, and this is something that I have noticed noted about, about Adam and, you know, we, we don't interact a whole lot cuz we don't have a lot of crossover in, in what we do, but we do interact on occasion and you know, you do have a modest nature and it's, and it's actually quite valuable in the role that you're taking you don't, you know, you, you, you don't jump to things you don't yeah, you don't overreact. You're, you're calm in a storm. You can, you can handle live problems because you don't, you don't overtax yourself. You don't push yourself beyond your limits and you, you know, where your limits are and that, and that's knowing yourself is a really valuable thing for any career.

(24:08):
But in science, I mean the harm that can be done by people that, that are not looking at the guards, you know, is, is tremendous. I mean, and whether it's harm physical harm or ethical harm, there's, there's a lot of, lot of ways where being serious and focused is so critical in having a successful career in bioscience. So, you know, I, I, you know, you've been exhibiting that in, in, you know, your entire career and, and you definitely do at Bitesize Bio and, and it makes you a real foil for, for Laura Grassie. Cause she, Laura, Laura's a, she's a fire brand and she's dynamic and amazing in fact, well, you know, I'll have her on in the future too. Y'all get the, the hear. And, but there's, there's a mix there. And then Laura actually was involved in, in the hiring process for you because she knew, she knew there's that she had some holes and, and you turned out to be the right person to fill those holes. And that's been very good for Bitesize Bio and I believe very good for the Bitesize Bio community too. It's it's impacted the quality of the content that's out there.

Adam Pawson (25:21):
Yeah. Laura and I work very well together. I think that the you know, the differences in our approach to, you know, our thinking and, and, and that is, is very well suited to, to our individual roles. Yeah.

Kenneth Vogt (25:36):
Right. And it, so, so the, the whole upshot of all of this has been, if you are working in a lab and you're thinking, I don't know if this is right for me, or I'm worried that this lab's gonna go away or this Grant's gonna go away and I might have to do something different. And is there even a possibility of doing something different? Adam Pawson is a shining example of what can happen when things change, but you still wanna stay a scientist. There are possibilities out there, there are opportunities. And granted this particular job is taken, but there are others, you know, there's other things out there in the world that one can do. And like, like what you were describing at at, when you were at the University of Edinburgh, I didn't even know there were such positions. I mean, that's just a, that's a fascinating thing.

(26:27):
And sometimes we just, you know, you don't know until you start looking around until you start asking questions and, and, you know, talking to other people and saying, what else is out there? What do, what do you know about? And so today we had a chance to find out what one of your brethren knew about and acted on. So Adam, I thank you so much for, for coming in today and allowing us to pick your brain and, and share some highlights from, from your career that may inspire some other folks to, to move on with their own careers.

Adam Pawson (27:00):
That's great. Thank you, Ken.

Kenneth Vogt (27:01):
All right. Thank you. And if you wanna see more, Nick's gonna tell you more about it in just a moment.

Nick Oswald (27:10):
Thank you for listening to The Happy Scientist podcast, helping you to become a happier, healthier, and more productive scientist, to get more Happy Scientist Podcast episodes, and all of our downloadables. Please go to bitesizebio.com/thehappyscientist, all one word. And in particular, you might want to spend some time on episodes. One to nine, where we talk about the foundational principles of human needs, core mindsets, and charisma factors, which we refer to in many episodes. You can also hook up with us on Facebook, facebook.com/thehappyscientistpodcast all one word to get latest episodes and additional material. We hope to see you there.

Intro/outro (27:57):
The Happy Scientist is brought to you by Bitesize Bio, your mentor in the lab, Bitesize Bio features, thousands of articles and webinars contributed by hundreds of PhD, scientists and scientific companies who freely offer their hard one wisdom and solutions to the Bitesize Bio community.