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Intro/Outro (00:04):
This is The Happy Scientist podcast. Each episode is designed to make you more focused, more productive, and more satisfied in the lab. You can find us online at Bitesizebio.com/happy scientist. Your hosts are Kenneth Vogt, founder of the executive coaching firm Vera Claritas and Dr. Nick Oswald, PhD bioscientist and founder of Bitesize Bio.

Nick Oswald (00:34):
Hello and welcome to the happy scientist podcast from Bitesize Bio if you want to become a happier, healthier, and more productive scientist, you are in the right place. I'm Nick Oswald, the founder of Bitesizebio.com. Where we provide bio-science researchers with help for improving their technical skills, their soft skills and their wellbeing. In this podcast, we'll be focusing on the latter of these three areas. And with me, the driving force of the podcast is Kenneth Vogt, I've worked with Ken for over seven years now with him as my business mentor and colleague, and I knew that his expertise could help a lot of researchers. And that is why we started this podcast. In these sessions we'll hear mostly from Ken on principles that will help shape you for a happier and more successful career. Along the way, I'll pitch in with points from my personal experience as a scientist and from working with Ken. So let's bring in the man himself. How are you today Ken?

Kenneth Vogt (01:28):
Doing great, Nick. So here we are in part two of our three part series on how to discover and wield your charisma factors. So last, the last episode, we made the case for why you should care about charisma. And I want to reiterate a little bit of that because this is really important. The things that you hope to accomplish in your life and in your career are not going to happen. If you are an Island, you are going to need other people. You're going to need their help. You're going to need their support. You're going to need their leadership and guidance. In some cases, you're going to need their labor. In some cases, whatever it turns out to be, to get other people, to help you. Charisma is the one thing you must have to inspire them to bring them along with what it is you hope to accomplish. Now, charisma we've, we've talked about how it could be used for evil, but you know what Nick and I, we trust you. We think you're not going to use it for evil. That's why we're willing to share this with you.

(02:37):
And even if you're just operating from a neutral stance of just wanting to be persuasive about getting things done your way, we assume that you've put some thought into what it is you're trying to accomplish in the world, what you're trying to accomplish in the lab. And you feel it's, it's, it's gonna serve some good. If you think it's really going to be world changing well, then it is imperative that you get your charisma house in order, if you are doing something that is for the benefit of mankind, if you really feel that burning inside of you, then it is it, it behooves you to make sure you can marshal other people to help you with this. And charisma is the way that you're going to get that done. So I want to go back again to that dictionary definition, just to the staple, this up there, that charisma is compelling, attractiveness or charm that can inspire devotion in others.

(03:36):
Now last week's episode, you might've heard that and said, well, that lets me out. Can't do anything like that. But hopefully after you listened for a little while you thought, you know, maybe I could do that. Maybe at least to a certain degree. And we'll use Nick, as an example. And Andy and his side project is his band and yes. Can they be compelling? I've seen the videos. Yes. Can they be attractive? Yeah, they can be. Can they be charming? Absolutely. Do they inspire people? I've seen pictures of the crowd. I've seen videos of the crowd. Definitely devotion. Well, I, people keep showing up for the show so something's going on. So, so here's the point. Here's a guy that is not, didn't structured his life to be a rock star. He's put in all the hard work and effort that you did to get a PhD and then actually work in a lab, you know, and do the work.

(04:36):
And yet he did this other thing on the side that showed that he could have charisma and he can, and he's been able to bring that same thing to bear in the business of Bitesize Bio. So I'll toot on Nick a little bit more here in that, in that Bitesize Bio is not a small operation. You can imagine, you know, with thousands of articles and webinars on the website about, about technique in the laboratory, in some cases, very high level technique. This, this required bringing some very busy and important people into this work to, to give of themselves, to share these things in many cases. And, and of course he had to assemble a team of people that were capable of understanding the nature of the, of the content that is being presented there. And not only could, you know, would be able to read it understandably, but would know whether or not it was good advice.

(05:38):
Cause I'm gonna, I'm going to digress into a little something that has to do with me this time. See, I've done consulting and coaching for many, many different businesses across many industries. And I felt that I had gotten to a point where I could take on any new industry. It was no problem because I'd seen it all. I, you know, whatever you've got, I can handle it. It won't be a problem. And then I encountered bio-science and I just got the wind kicked out of me because all of the sudden I was among a bunch of people that use a language I didn't understand. They, they used words to describe concepts that I didn't understand that I, I hadn't felt that ignorant since I was a child, as I listened to all this stuff. And I realized why I really gotta, I've really got to be humble here and be willing to learn.

(06:48):
And, and so, you know, I've made an effort to get in with this crowd, this crowd of scientists, and I've learned to use phrases, you know, like, like PCR and flow cytometry. And I almost sound like I know what they mean. The point being of all this though, that that for me, for me to be charismatic, in this space, I had to do a lot of listening. I had to ask a lot of questions because at the end of the day, I need folks to listen to what I'm saying. I am an expert on the areas that I'm an expert on. And for them to respect me there, I was going to have to show respect for their, their space and what they knew. And that's one thing I think actually comes a little bit more naturally among scientists than among other people. You're used to encountering people that are experts about something that you just haven't had time to have expertise in there.

(07:52):
There's, there's so much there that no-one can know it all. And so yeah, you have the opportunity for a mutual admiration society as it were, which is fine. But the beauty of that is that when you, when you, when you show admiration for the other person, there, they are somewhat compelled to show admiration for you. If you can demonstrate your, that you're a peer to them, that, that, okay. You know, something I don't know about now, here's something that I know above it. You don't know about. And if you presented in the right way, you can help bring people along. So that's the question, then what's the right way? How do I, how do I take this and, and get people on board with the way I'm seeing things and what I think ought to be accomplished? Well, just like we had with human needs and just like we had with core mindsets, I was looking for a set of things that could be remembered.

(08:59):
That would be small enough that people could just hold it in their heads and not have to be referring back to a manual all the time and where, where it would be complete enough that in that it would, in most cases, cover everything they needed. So we're going to discuss six charisma factors that anyone can implement. Some people will be outstanding in implementing some of these things and you'll, and as you listen to these, you'll, you'll be able to pick out the ones that are best for you. And I want to be clear here. This is a little different than human needs with the six human needs. Everybody has all six at all times. It's just the, the level of importance of each of them shifts from person to person. But they're all there all the time. That is not the case with charisma factors.

(09:52):
These six charisma factors, you are not required to be good at all. Six of them. You don't, you can, you can be good at a few of them. You can be good at one of them and it will be enough. So don't feel overwhelmed by this. When you start hearing some of these and you go, Oh, I can never be that. Okay, fine. Don't worry about that one. We'll move on to the next one after that. But it's also good for you to recognize these factors in other people, because you will see then why other people are getting their way, why other people's projects are being promoted. And when yours isn't, you'll see what's different about what they're doing versus what I'm doing. And it will help you to want it to, you know, maybe not be as put out by that because Hey, when people are being charismatic, when they're being persuasive and, and inspiring, well, things should happen and you can't be jealous about that stuff. You know, you can't be envious about it. Like why, why can't I have that? You know, you can, you just have to do the things that they're doing. And if you can't do everything that they're doing, we'll do some of the things that they're doing and at least get some of the results that they're getting. So before I dive into these, is there anything you wanted to add, Nick?

Nick Oswald (11:10):
No, I think, well, I mean the only thing relevant, again, we'll go back to the band situation and Bitesize Bio. So the beginning of, I mean, we bootstrapped Bitesize Bio from nothing. And so looking back on it, I must have had some charisma as in I got people who want it to work with me when we had no, you know, we couldn't pay people to do anything, things like that. So that was,

Kenneth Vogt (11:36):
That definitely takes charisma.

Nick Oswald (11:38):
So, but I think it's the same. I just didn't realize that that was charisma. It's just me being me. And but then I, I, the interesting thing is that then to do the band situation or to be able to, to be able to increase my charisma, to an effective level, to be able to do the, meet the challenge for the band that required focusing on that innate, innate charisma and, and amplifying it and and, and actively working on it. And so that's probably the situation for a lot of people. You are probably being charismatic without realizing it, but then there, then there are you know, by looking at other people you can figure out and then by, you know, by going with the pointers that you give Ken, then you can, you can turn up the volume on that charisma that you already have.

(12:30):
And that's really what the situation is, I think exactly. And one other, one other thing is that along the way Bitesize Bio and the band I've drawn heavily on always, if I could get help, then I've taken it as in I got Ken to help me in Bitesize Bio. For the band, I got a singing teacher. I got and he was in a proper band, like a very successful band. And so he was able to give me the confidence that I could actually do that, you know, transfer some of his confidence if you like, or, you know and you know, I've done various things that, that, where I have deliberately put myself in a situation where I had to learn from someone else and or rise to the occasion. And and those both seem to have the effect of amplifying the, the charisma.

Kenneth Vogt (13:23):
Sure. And, you know, I can say having worked with people at Bitesize Bio for several years now, and there has been a change in personnel over time. But when I first started working with him, it was a good team of people that Nick had drawn. And over time it's gotten better and better and better, he's drawing better and better people. And he's, it's, he's almost doing it on automatic now because he he's installed this charisma now and it's showing up and you're going to, you're going to hear some of these as we talk about them, you're going to be able to guess which ones work for Nick. It's gonna, it's going to be obvious to you. And probably even just from hearing me on this podcast, you're going to recognize some of my personal factors and, you know, I'll point out some of that stuff too. And this is, this is not about you know, obviously we're not just trying to look good in front of anybody. This is not an ego stroke to say, well, look at me, I'm charismatic, you know, well, it's necessary to be charismatic and it's actually not that uncommon. So it's feeling, feeling all special about it is kind of silly.

Nick Oswald (14:32):
It's not very difficult either actually once you understands it.

Kenneth Vogt (14:36):
Yeah. And so it's, it's silly to get egotistical about this stuff, but it is also silly to pretend it doesn't matter. And like, I don't need that, or while that's for other people or it's, you know, or I can't, you know, don't to, you can't do something that is well within your capability is also, it's a kind of an inverse egotistical position to take. So you know, being egotistical is not a good thing in case I haven't made that clear being, being humble is a very good thing. And sometimes that's counterintuitive to folks that humility seems like, well, that wouldn't work, but it does. But it does. People are drawn to humility. People are offended by egotism. So, you know, it'll, it'll become clear as we talk about some of these. So now these six factors we're going to consider them in, in, in order.

(15:31):
And here's the order alphabetical. Cause there is no order. There's nothing, there's no link, particularly between one to another or anything. That's kind of the point. There's no crossover between these. And there isn't one that's more important than another. Cause I promise you, you can have merely one of these and if you nail it, it will be more than enough and you will, you will stand out and that's, that's what this is about. It's standing out for a good reason. You're not standing up because you want to pretend to be important or because you want attention, you're standing out because it's in service of a greater goal. It's in service of a mission that, that, that you have put yourself in charge of. So that's the point of all this? So the first charisma factor we're going to cover is being admirable. That is being someone who is respectable, reputable, and honorable.

(16:30):
That is not something that a lot of folks automatically think of when it comes to charisma, but, but having people admire you because they believe you're a good person and that you have that, that you have the greatest good in mind for others is very, very powerful. And there's a, there's a graphic we have in the show notes. That's going to cover all of these, these characteristics. And it's got some examples people from history that you'll recognize. But if you think back about it, you know, if you think about the people that you admire, actually willing to do things for them, aren't you willing to follow their advice? Aren't you willing to, to put yourself out for somebody that you admire and it might be somebody you admire, you know, in a, in a really big way, you know, they, you admire them because you know, they're Winston Churchill and they took, they took England through World War II, you know? Okay. Well, that's something that you might deeply admire, or it could be just like I admire my second grade teacher. She, she gave me a love of reading and it stayed with me my whole life. You know? So being admirable can show up in a lot of ways.

(17:55):
So one thing I would like to point out here, when you look at something like Bitesize Bio and you think who would, who would have started something like that, who would have bothered to put together a bunch of tools to help lab based scientists at the bench who, who would have bothered to do that. And you think, wow, that's really great because there really isn't anything out there like it it's, it's a one of a kind. And now it's gotten to the point where if, if you also had the same kind of desire to help being able to do something like this, you wouldn't look at it and go, wow, I don't know how I could possibly catch up to that. Well, there's something admirable about Bitesize Bio and you know admirability, you can, you can see it in a, in an organization, but ultimately it comes down to the people.

(18:47):
It ultimately, there's a person there that you're going to admire. And, and you, it might be somebody you admire in your department and you might admire people for different reasons. You might admire somebody's work ethic, or you might admire their intellect, or you might admire their curiosity or their sticktuitiveness. You know, there's lots of things that can be admired and you can take it into a self-inventory and say, what, what about me is admirable? You know, you'll and I know the first thing you'll do is you'll go, well, I can know exactly. What's not admirable about me. You know, I'm lazy and I'm smelling, I'm stupid and I'm, you know, okay, get those out of the way, but then go, what is admirable? What is there? That's admirable about me? And you may be surprised how many things you can find. And once you identify it and you realize, well, you know what, you know, all ego aside, I'm pretty smart.

(19:39):
And I've worked hard at it too, you know? So I'm not just smart. I'm educated. I'm erudite. I've I've I know I, I'm a deep domain expert in, in certain places. Once you have that and you realize, okay, now that's something that I can use for charisma. Now you don't run around and tell, you know, just you don't introduce yourself. Hi, my name is Ken. I'm a deep domain expert on, on how to motivate people. You know? No, you don't do it like that, but you, you, you find ways to make it known. And, and especially if you let other people make it known, create the opportunity for other people to speak about why you are respectable and reputable and honorable and admirable. Like I just did about Nick.

Nick Oswald (20:28):
Thank you. It's not embarrassing.

Kenneth Vogt (20:32):
Okay. Is there anything you don't want to add on admirability Nick?

Nick Oswald (20:41):
Okay. I did exactly what you said, what you suggested and that I went straight to what are things that I might, might have other people that, that I don't admire about myself? I feel like like one of them being, I don't have particularly good, I definitely don't have particularly good time discipline, for example, I'm not the most disciplined person in the world, but I really respect that in other people. So perhaps one way to look at that, I said, that's an area to one area to grow in. You know, if I wanted to focus on that and expand then that, that would expand my my charisma. I feel like that'd be one way to look at it.

Kenneth Vogt (21:21):
Sure. And it's also the other side of it is, well, let's say, you know, I've never been that good about time management and maybe I'll just decide, you know what, I'm, I'm never going to be a model in that area. So maybe I shouldn't bother to put my attention there as far as gaining charisma over that. But what about me? Am I good at what do, what do I have that, that isn't actually coming that hard that I feel naturally drawn to do. And you might, and it might be, you know, I really like to be creative. And I really like to think outside the box or, or I'm very structured. I mean, I, I crossed my T's and I dot my I's. You can count on me in this area. I remember a software engineer that I once knew. And there was a big meeting going on about some software that was being developed.

(22:14):
And it was, there was a lot of pressure and somebody said, well, maybe there's a bug over in this area. And it was an area that was covered by this particular engineer. And he just, he didn't even get up. He didn't even hardly look up. He just said, there are no bugs in my code. And everyone just went, Nope, there's not. Cause that's something he owned. He, he was so methodical about this stuff that he could make a statement like that without having to check, he could just say, I know my stuff is tight. And that was something that everyone admired about him. So if he said something worked, we believed them. Well, we would, we would march to war on those orders.

Nick Oswald (23:01):
So you would, you would definitely recommend just focusing on the positives rather than negatives, you know?

Kenneth Vogt (23:06):
Well, it's certainly worth noticing the negatives. If there's something there that might be easily fixed, but in this case, when it comes to charisma, I would say there's, there's, there's more ground to be. There's more benefit to you to focus on the things you're already good at. So, you know, if, if you're a great tennis player and an a not so good, you know, football player, well play tennis. Yeah. You could get better at football, but you may never be as good as you are at tennis already. And since you're already good at tennis, well, when I get better at tennis, so that, that works, that works easier for charisma to be. It'll be hard. It won't be as hard on you. Cause there's one thing about charisma, Christmas, something happens kind of on a public stage. You don't charisma is something, you have to do an interaction with another person. There's no, you know, you can sit at home with your guitar or your microphone and you can practice playing guitar and singing. But at the end of the day, it's, it's the getting up on stage. That's going to matter. So charisma is like that too, you're ultimately you have to be able to do it in front of people. So do stuff. You're going to feel more confident about it. So it's a little easier.

(24:28):
So let's look at a second characteristic as we move down the alphabet. And this one is someone who is commanding that is they're authoritative masterful and assertive. Now, we've all definitely seen people like that, that they it's a crisis situation. And somebody just jumps up, jumps up on the table and takes charge. Cause they're commanding and people want somebody to tell them what to do and they will follow that person. Cause they're, they were looking for somebody to follow in, in a difficult situation. So being commanding again, you can, you can do a self assessment there. Am I good in a crisis? Am I somebody that really grasps the big picture and can articulate it? If you've got that oh man, that is a very, it's a very powerful way of, of exercising charisma. And now I'm going to break a rule that I just made a minute ago. Remember how I, I talked about how admirable Bitesize Bio was and what Nick had created. And I said, you know, better that somebody else speak about it.

(25:38):
Commanding is, is my main charisma factor. It's the one, it is the strongest one for me. And I'll bet, even though I'm seeing it right now and all you've done is heard me on a few podcasts. You're going, yeah, that sounds about right, because I do have that particular kind of presence. It's, it's not, and it's not something that I have to work at. It's that, that is pretty natural for me. And it's been natural for me for a very, very, very long time. And I'm like, Nick, I too am a musician and I've been in bands and I've been lead singer bands, you know, because I wanted to be the lead singer. I didn't just want to be in a band. So I had a conversation once with a fellow band mate. I'm the lead singer in the band. I played guitar.

(26:30):
But I prefer to just, I preferred at the time, especially to just be the singer, our lead guitarist, who was a very, very good guitarist was also a decent singer. He could have been lead singer in the band. And they, the band existed before I came along, I had, I had to audition to be in this band. And so I was, I didn't get it at once. So one time I was talking to him and saying, you know, why did you need a lead singer? Because you could, you're a good singer. And, and frankly, it's so much easier to sing them to play guitar. And he said, you know, it's funny, I was going to talk to you about the same thing, except I see it the opposite way I was going to ask you, why do you sing when it's so much easier to play guitar?

(27:16):
So, you know, we had, we had different views on it and this person commanding was not his nature. And that was one of the reasons he shied away from it. It wasn't that he couldn't sing. Well, he was afraid to, he was, he was concerned how much attention it would draw to him and the other folks in the band chimed in like, yeah, we all can hide behind our instruments, but you're just up there naked just you and a microphone. And I thought, I find the instruments to be in the way. I'm glad they're not there. So it was some people have that kind of characteristic about them. And those of you have this, you're going to recognize this. You're going to hear me talking like this and go, yep. I know exactly what you're talking about. Now. Some other folks who are going to listen to it and go, that's not me.

(28:08):
And some others of you are going to listen to this and go what a blowhard, you know? And again, it's not for you and that's fine. It doesn't have to be for you. Although if you can be, if you can use it, do, and I will use Nick as an example there and why, you know, lead singer in a band where he is playing a role, being commanding is quite useful. So Nick I'll, I will toss you under the bus right now and say, have you found any usefulness for being commanding in, in your role there?

Nick Oswald (28:38):
Well, it's quite interesting actually, because I thought that I was thinking that, you know, I, the charisma factors that I was brought to start Bitesize Bio, and then the ones I brought into the band were the same, but actually I don't think so. I think naturally I'm more communicative, communicative. I can't say it. That's quite funny communicative. And but in the band, actually, it's the, it's the commanding that, that, that I've turned up the volume on. And so that must've been there and I've turned it up a bit more and then that's what I've needed to do for the band. So I suppose uninhibited as well, and the communicative, as well as reducing inhibitions, certainly not getting rid of the mall by no stretch of the imagination, but but reducing them, working to reduce them is the way it's worked. Yeah.

Kenneth Vogt (29:25):
Right. And, and going in reference to the band to remember folks, this is a band that already existed, that was auditioning for a singer. And yet Nick has basically taken over the band. He's he's the leader now? Well, that isn't because he is an evil genius it's because he brought a commanding character to it and they needed that. And it worked for them. And they've, you know, they've had some personnel changes, but they continued to draw good musicians into the band because, because partially because there's a commanding presence there that feels like a stable place for somebody who is, you know, if they're going to bother to work at this, that, Oh, this is going to go somewhere. This is, this is going to be an actual band. We're not just going to practice and dream about playing for people. We're actually going to be out there playing.

(30:20):
So Nick, Nick was peeking from behind a curtain there, when he spoke of the third one and that's being communicative and being communicative means that you're expressive, you're uninhibited and your candid. And I agree with Nick, what are you saying that that being communicative was extremely important for the launching of Bitesize Bio because the whole point of it was to communicate vital information that was not being taught in university and was often not even being taught in labs in that you know, there was a certain lack of mentorship there, not because of a desire no interest in it, but because people didn't have time or or there just wasn't a sharing of the riches as it were there. Some labs had multiple people. There could have been great mentors for, for new scientists and other labs didn't have any, you know, so being communicative about these important topics became just critical for the success of Bitesize Bio.

(31:25):
And again, you'll, you'll look at yourself and say, does this describe me? Am I expressive? Am I uninhibited? Am I candid in my communication? When you, when you look at that and you say that is me, well, then look for opportunities to communicate. And when you think about the, the point of communication is making sure that the other person understands at the end, the point of communication isn't for you to talk, it is for you to be understood. So look for that. Look for your opportunities there. Now, if this doesn't speak, you feel like I'm just not, I've never been good at this. I don't know. You may find that, okay. Maybe I'm not good at being a public speaker, but if I have time to think about it and I can write it down I do pretty well with that. We'll pay attention to that for some, some of you, your, your best means of communication is going to be public speaking for others. It's absolutely going to be not public speaking. It's going to be, it's going to be white papers and reporting and emails and, and you know, other mediums. So, you know, find, find what's good for you. If there's, if there's something good for you in being communicative and I'll let you weigh in a little bit there Nick,

Nick Oswald (32:48):
Sure. It should be communicative. That's right. I was kind of deep in thought there. I was just thinking, so how do you break this open for people? If it seems still a bit dense, but I mean, we, as you said, there is the the graphic and the show notes that allows that outlines these you know, the, those factors, you know, different areas in which you can your natural charisma resides and and so that you can then focus on it and expand it. I have to say for me when when it first occurred to me that I was in the communicative area, that that was my charisma factor. It was quite a relief because I was, I was trying to be charismatic by being something that I wasn't and or, or I shied away from being charismatic because I didn't, I felt that was something that I wasn't, and it was quite a relief to know that you can be influential by resting in, in the, in what you already are. And it's just expanding that. And so I would encourage people to really look at that, that chart, that graphic and, and just see where, you know, really look, look to see where what feels comfortable for you, what area feels comfortable for you, and then look for ways to expand,

Kenneth Vogt (34:08):
Right? You just pointed out something too. That's an interesting little point. And that is what is it? What is your objective here for all this? For some people, their objective is to be influential. For some people, their objective is for everyone to know that they're influential. That second one might be very, very intimidating for some folks, but if you could be influential behind the scenes, you know, as it, you don't have to be upfront, that's fine. You know, so it's, it's like being the drummer or the bass player that they're critically important in a good band. And if they're not good, you don't, nobody understands why, but they just don't like the band. Well it's because that backbone isn't there. Well, if you're more that backbone kind of person awesome, be influential and you can be influential by taking on some of these characteristics that aren't necessarily so forward.

(35:07):
So being admirable, it can be a very quiet way of being charismatic. So, you know, commanding communicative are a little louder and you can also see there's combinations here now, too, if you could be both commanding and communicative, whew, the things you could do, or if you could be both commanding and admirable, the things you could do, and we're going to have some others that we'll look at, they're a little quieter too. So don't, you know, right now you're saying, Oh, two of these are so hard. I mean, I can only do one. Well, there's, there's three more. We'll cover them in the next session and you'll see what what is possible for you. But if one is powerful too, it's, they're multiplied. So these are, these are multipliers. It's not addition here, it multiplication.

Nick Oswald (35:54):
Yeah. I don't know if this is a generic general thing, but I find it easier. The more that I expand in one, I find it easier to expand it in another area or to bring in other areas, just looking back, I didn't do it on purpose, but I can see just from these three, that, that, that are areas that because I've taken opportunities to, to force myself into these or force myself to, to give me opportunities to expand in these, in different areas, then it's easier to, to expand in other areas, just kind of naturally,

Kenneth Vogt (36:26):
Right. And, you know, remember those three, those three things I said you could bring to the table for each factor, presence, power and warmth. So imagine what you could do in each of those cases. If I, if I just focused on one of the crossovers there of presence and admirable, what could I do? I just focus on power and commanding, what could I do? I just focus on warmth and communicative. What could I do? So there's lots of opportunity here. None of this is, is overwhelming. Any little bit you do to be more charismatic is beneficial. This isn't the kind of thing where you have to reach some critical mass before it's useful. Anything you do here is going to help,

Nick Oswald (37:15):
And, and it's, it's maybe good to just touch on what that helps with and what it helps you to do is to connect with people and and to, you know, rally them to, to whatever it is that you're doing. Is that a good description?

Kenneth Vogt (37:30):
Yeah. It's, it's, it's yeah. It's rallying them to your cause.

Nick Oswald (37:33):
Yeah. Which is not a selfish thing. It doesn't have to be a selfish thing that it's, that's the good, the more we rally to each other's causes the better, the better everything becomes.

Kenneth Vogt (37:42):
Right. And, and, you know, it does give you the opportunity to look at your own. Cause it's like, is this a cause worth rallying to? Should I bother to add any charisma to this? Or is, is this thing not that important? Yeah. And it might give you a chance to take a look at maybe you've, you've sold yourself short. And so you set the bar really low, and that's why you've never bothered to add any charisma to anything. We'll set the bar a little higher where, you know some charisma is going to be necessary. Give yourself, give yourself the chance to do better than you thought you were going to do, you know, and, and see what you can do. And if you get help, you may be able to do a lot more than you thought you could do. Certainly more than you could have done alone.

Nick Oswald (38:26):
That's an interesting one. I'm going to think about that.

Kenneth Vogt (38:30):
All right. Well, we will leave Nick to think about that one in the next week. We're going to cover some more charisma factors. So that's that's pretty much a wrap for our session today.

Nick Oswald (38:41):
Okay. Thanks guys. Thanks everyone. And just to remind you that you can get the graphic for the show about the charisma factor is on the show notes for episode eight, and you can also join us at Facebook, facebook.com/thehappyscientistclub or one word to get more about charisma factors and everything else that we talk about in this podcast. We'll see you in the next episode.

Kenneth Vogt (39:05):
All right. Thanks everybody.

Intro/Outro (39:12):
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