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Intro/Outro (00:08):
This is The Happy Scientist podcast. Each episode is designed to make you more focused, more productive, and more satisfied in the lab. You can find us online at Bitesizebio.com/happy scientist. Your hosts are Kenneth Vogt, founder of the executive coaching firm, Vera Claritas, and Dr. Nick Oswald, PhD bioscientist and founder Bitesize Bio.

Nick Oswald (00:37):
Hello and welcome to the happy scientist podcast from Bitesize Bio. If you want to become a happier, healthier, and more productive scientist, you are in the right place. I'm Nick Oswald, the founder of Bitesizebio.com, where we provide bio-science researchers with help from improving their technical skills, soft skills on their wellbeing. And in this podcast, we'll be focusing on the latter of these three areas with me, actually, the driving force of this podcast is Kenneth Vogt. I have worked with Ken for over seven years now with him as my business mentor and colleague and, I knew that his expertise could have a lot of researchers. And that is why we decided to start this, put this podcast together. And these sessions you'll hear mostly from Ken on principles that will help shape you for a happier and more successful career. And along the way, I will pitch in with points from my personal experience as a scientist and from working with Ken.

(01:31):
So let's bring in the man himself. How are you today, Ken?

Kenneth Vogt (01:35):
I'm doing great. Nick, happy to be here. And our third session on how to discover and wield your charisma factors. And you've probably noticed we've put a lot of effort into talking you into believing that charisma matters and that it is possible for you. So many people think that, Oh, charisma is something that movie stars and politicians have, but you know, I'm just a lowly bioscientist and it's just not true. It's just not true. You have charisma factors and more importantly, you need charisma. It isn't something you can do without. And the reason you need charisma is because charisma is how you encourage other people to help you to carry out whatever your mission is. And we're all engaged in work. Now that can't be done alone. We can't just be working in our own little bubble and actually accomplish anything important or meaningful.

(02:39):
We need the help of other people. We need the support of other people. We need the guidance of other people and charisma works in all directions. It's it works for people that will follow you, but it also works with your, the people that you are following the, your, your bosses and your leaders. You can actually use charisma on them to get them to help you. And imagine when, when you use your charisma to get the assistance or support or help from somebody who is in a position of, of a power or authority or where they, they themselves have a great deal of charisma and therefore are drawing a lot of resources. It can really multiply things for you and, and really take things to a new level for you. So I hope I've made the case for why charisma is worth the effort. So the next question then is, well, is there anything I can do about it?

(03:35):
You know, how can I, how can I have charisma and charisma is something that I think people often think of as a, something kind of narrow, that, that, that, that only applies in a certain way in a, requires a certain kind of personality, but that's not true. Every personality has strengths and weaknesses and every kind of personality can have charisma. And you think why I'm quiet or I'm, I don't, I'm not a big time communicator. It's okay. You can make that work. So last, the last episode, we talked about the first three charisma factors. And remember there were pointing to six charisma factors. Here are six things you can actually remember that you could take with you and, and that you can apply. And the first three that we talked about last time were being admirable. That is being respectable, reputable, or honorable. Now that is definitely something that a scientist can be in.

(04:39):
In many cases, we think about respectability your rep or reputation. That's a very big deal in this field. And so, you know, you might not look at that and think about that in reference to a rock star. You don't think about a reputation, unless maybe it's a bad reputation, but, but in, in this field, reputation really is important and people will follow you and they will help you. And they just, they want to get on your side. If you're somebody with a good reputation, then they believe that it's something that will rub off on them if they can get next to you. So the first factor that we talked about last week was being admirable. And that is someone who is respectable, reputable, or honorable. And this is definitely something that a scientist can do. Sometimes when you think of something like a rock star, you don't think of them as being reputable, unless you're thinking about them as having a bad reputation.

(05:38):
But a scientist it really matters and people will want to be associated with you. If you have a good reputation that helps you. So if you have this, if you've already have developed this, this quality it's charisma, you might not have thought of it as charisma, but it will help you to draw people forward. The second one we talked about last week was being commanding, and that is somebody who's authoritative or masterful or assertive. If this is a characteristic that you possess,uthen absolutely you can use this. Now this, then this is one of those ones that I would say is more of a classical one. If people had to come up with an automatic definition for charisma, they would say, all, somebody who takes charge, like this'll matter. But again, it's something you can use. And especially if you're in a position where you, you have authority and you have responsibility, well, use it.

(06:34):
You use that to, to, to your best advantage. And, and when I say advantage, I don't mean like in terms of taking advantage, like you're misusing people, but make it advantageous that there's, there is absolutely nothing wrong with making use of the things that are available to you. The third one we talked about the last episode was being communicative. That is somebody who's expressive, uninhibited and candid. And again, this is how we deal with people. It's by communication. And you may look at this and say, you know, that's not a strong one for me. I don't love that. Or maybe you're working in a, in a world where English, is your second language and English is the language of the lab. And so you feel like I'm, I'm not as good at this. So I have to hold back a bit, but you can reach out more.

(07:31):
And the more you make an effort, the more you try, the more you communicate, the, the more charismatic you can be. So there are three more characteristics that we haven't discussed yet. So we're going to dig into those in a little more detail here. And, and I wanna, I wanna remind everybody that with all of these factors, there's some things that we need to bring to the table and it applies to any one of these factors, and that is presence, power, and warmth. If, if you bring presence, power and warmth, and then you apply it to any of these factors, you're going to find people will gravitate to you. They will come along with you. And this is about something that you should use for good, all of these things. You could use them to manipulate people, but instead of, instead of taking that path, I would, I would suggest that you take the path of being persuasive to people. It's more powerful. At some point, people get annoyed at being manipulated, but no one ever gets annoyed at being persuaded.

Nick Oswald (08:48):
I think that's a great point, Ken, and you talked earlier, about the classical view of, of charisma and that being, you know, someone who's masterful or commanding, and it's often associated with manipulation or you know, being a kind of a bad thing. And so that kind of, you know, that one narrow definition of charisma and the the one narrow definition, and then the sort of association with it being abused as kind of makes charisma seem like a bad thing. You know, we, I think for a lot of people and, and as well as you mentioned something that, that people, people might not think they have. So, but I think that what I like about this, the scheme that you set out of these different characteristics is that not only broadens the you know, the, the options, the toolbox you have for asserting your charisma or projecting your charisma, if you like, it gives you, it gives you kind of an idea of what you can then, you know, turn up the volume on.

(09:52):
And I guess that's what you're talking about when you mean about bringing, when you're talking about bringing warmth and presence in, and you're kind of turning up the volume on these ones that you know, initially the ones that feel closest to you, but you can, you know, in the end you can turn up the volume on all of them to some extent and bring in increasing warmth and increasing charisma again, to give it the umbrella term for yourself and, and just be more influential in, in whatever way you, you know, that you naturally are more influential. If you see what I mean. Right. Which suits you most.

Kenneth Vogt (10:26):
So, you know, the, the bottom line is, we're not telling you to sell out your own values. In fact, we're telling you quite the opposite, apply your values here. And, and it's like, yeah, if you look back at that, like that first one of being admirable, well, somebody who's admirable it's because of their high values. It's because they have a high standard. So there's nothing about this that should cause you to say you, well here's how, here's how I will control people. And here's how I will connive. And here's how I will, underhandedly get what I want. And at the, you know, at a great cost to others, no, none of that. And, you know, the caution is still there that yes, you could do that. You could absolutely do that, but you will do it to your own detriment. So, you know, don't do it.

(11:21):
So you'll notice too, that these, these factors I've been going through them in a very important order. It's alphabetical because you can't raise one above another, it comes down to what works for you. Cause some of these you're going to hear them and go, yeah. You know, I'm young and, and I'm brash. And I haven't really developed being admirable yet in my career. Well, that's fine. But maybe communicative is the one for you. Maybe you could like, yeah, I gotta, I'm always talking and I've always got something to say, and I'm constantly coming up with new ideas, like, okay, great. You know, then use those, use that factor. And

Nick Oswald (12:04):
Isn't it also true Ken though, it's not just like, it's not just a thing that applies to your professional conduct or status. If you, if you are working with someone who shows admirable characters in another way, just by being reliable or, or being kind, or or anything else that you're more likely to gravitate towards them. And you're more likely to want to help them or, or want to work with them or whatever, as opposed to the opposite where there's someone who's shown you, who's not being admirable at all. And kind of tend to repulse you a little bit, you know, not to repulse you physically, but repel you a little bit. You tend to take a step back. So I think that, yeah, it's important to not get fixated on the fact that these are about this being professional. It can be, you can bring in these characteristics from any aspect of, of your life and.

Kenneth Vogt (12:58):
For sure. And, and you could look at this in reverse too, if you're being the opposite of any of these things. So you're going to repel people. So even if you feel like, look, I'm not, I'm not God's gift to communication. If you're somebody who's like, man, this person, you can't even talk to them, that's going to push people away. So, you know, don't be anti any of these characteristics, even if you feel like, you know what, I can't Excel at that thing, make sure that you are not setting the example for how not to do it.

Nick Oswald (13:30):
Yeah. Yeah.

Kenneth Vogt (13:31):
All right. So that, so the next one, the number four on our list is being faithful. That is somebody who is steadfast, trustworthy, dedicated, and you don't want to have to be somebody with high status to be this, when you're that guy that, you know what, when we give it to Bob, it gets done we can count on Bob, you know, and whether that's just, you know, cleaning test tubes, they know it's going to get done and it's going to get done. Right. But that is, that is not a hard quality to develop. That is just a matter of, of doing your job and doing it properly and, and not cutting corners. And, and you'd be surprised how much, how much juice you can get out of that. Now, some of you, this is very, very natural for you. It's like, yeah, I've never cut corners.

(14:30):
I want to do things right. Well, great. If you've got that, you can leverage that into charisma and you know, it's not a matter of, you don't have to necessarily run around tooting your horn about it because it'll be obvious if you're somebody that gets the job done and gets it done properly, it's going to get noticed. And if you're in a place where nobody cares about that stuff, and nobody notices that, you know, that's a different discussion. Maybe you need to find a better place to be. But generally speaking, we're living in a professional realm where this kind of thing does matter and people will care about it. And even if everybody's doesn't care about it, some people are gonna care about it. And often there are people that matter. So you know, take, take advantage of this in the positive sense, if this is what your natural characteristic is.

(15:24):
So the next one on the list, and this is this one I think is a really good one for scientists. And that is someone who is innovative, someone who's inventive, imaginary, visionary. I realize that a lot of the tasks that, that have been set before you have been soul sucking, you got into this thinking that you were going to cure cancer and you are gonna invent the next light bulb or whatever it was. You, you had a picture in your head and then you found well I'm doing the same boring, repetitive tasks, time after time, I'm not getting to choose what I do. I, ta-da-ta-da-ta-da well, look for opportunities, look for opportunities to innovate. And Nick, I want to kind of throw that one at you, and I'm gonna I'm gonna put you on the spot here. What do you do in a situation where you find you're not getting a chance to innovate? So what, what have you found works in the lab?

Nick Oswald (16:24):
For me, I was, that's one of my strong points is innovation and it's almost like I have to do it. So even when I was, I was in one lab and it was very it was very narrow. I had a very narrow range of movement. If you like very narrow opportunity to innovate in terms of the research I was doing, I would, I did all sorts of innovation around making the lab work better, making my you know, making my note, taking system better making little, you know, I was doing repetitive experiments and I made innovated the, made the innovations around the protocol and made little bits of equipment that made it more made it easier to, to do these repetitive things over and over again. So for me, it just always happens. And even if it's only a tiny thing, I, I, I kind of just leave things alone, but again, that's for me just cause that's one of my main things. So yeah, I would say there's never an opportunity to not, there's never not a new not an opportunity to innovate as I like to say it.

Kenneth Vogt (17:39):
We know what you meant. Yeah. I, and I kinda feel that feel that way. My, my background personal background is software development. So innovation in software development, there are all kinds of opportunities. And it is my understanding that for many of you scientists, you're actually doing a little software development in there too. So yeah. So you, you find your, you find your opportunities that I think was one of the points you were making Nick that maybe you can't control, Hey, this is how the study is structured and there's nothing I can do. And these are the tasks I've been assigned and there's nothing I can do about that, but all around it, there's still plenty of opportunity. And even if it's something as basic as, Hey, how I'm going to take my notes on this you know, there's whole products that have been developed around note taking it's crazy. Yeah,

Nick Oswald (18:34):
That's the thing is, is the opportunities for innovation and then ultimately taking that out to a product or whatever are there that are way more than you think. And, you know, just too small. And as you said, something as simple as devising a new way to, to keep your lab notebook. I used to do things where I would make a form template forms and print my, so that I didn't have to do the same free, you know, free hand writing every time for the same repetitive experiment. And that saved me a lot of time. But then as you say, that can be, that can be a business, you know, or it's the seed of a business. And there are all sorts of things like that. They're not just the, the headline the headline sort of things that you might think of that the only way to innovate my brain isn't really switched on to this. I don't know what's happening with my English, but I think, you know what I'm saying?

Kenneth Vogt (19:28):
Oh yeah. Well, and you know, not everything is going to turn into a business and maybe that's not really what you want. Like, Hey, look, I want to, I just, I just want to be a scientist in the lab. I don't want to start a new company, but something that comes to mind here that applies pretty well in this situation is there have literally been thousands of scientists who have figured something out, figured out a system, learned something about it and said, you know what? I'm going to write an article about this and I'm gonna, and I'm going to offer it to Bitesize Bio. And so many, many, many of you who have that innovative streak have decided I'm going to, I'm going to share this with the world. And that's part of what people have done here. Well, you know, it's a, it's a way of getting something published too, which is also useful in your field and ways of getting your name known and being able to say, Hey, you know, I've, I've got six articles on Bitesize Bio or I've, I've written for this place or this place, this place and Bitesize Bio.

(20:30):
It's, that's part of being innovative. And that, that is part of what you got to do to move your career forward and to enjoy your career to where it's like, Hey, it's not just, I got to do the grind in the lab. I want to talk about it. I want to share the things I've learned and, and I want to make it easier for the next person and the person that comes behind me.

Nick Oswald (20:53):
Definitely. I think that if you look through Bitesize, for example, there's all sorts of innovations and all sorts of different slices, some of the most obvious being homemade pieces of equipment homemade cell spinners, homemade boxes for taking photographs of gels and all sorts of stuff like that. Some of my favorite, because it's very obvious, but even little innovations and protocols or troubleshooting or, or different systems for, you know, doing anything that a scientist does, that's all innovation. And and you know, as I mentioned, I was trying to get what I was telling you earlier about, you know, making businesses out of that is only that that's the ultimate incarnation of an improvement, but what you're doing with innovation is you're just improving things for yourself and for everyone around it. And is, I guess that's why that is. It's a, it's a way to be charismatic essentially. Cause it's just making improvements.

Kenneth Vogt (21:54):
Yeah. Now, for some of you that this innovation is going to be truly groundbreaking, but others, you may look at this and say, you know what? I just don't have that kind of creativity, but don't sell yourself short. There are articles on Bitesize Bio that are as simple as how to do a Western blot, you know? And he was like, why would, why? Well, I could, I could write an article about that. Well, by all means do, because you know what, somebody doesn't know how it's, you, you think you've forgotten that you've gained competence, you weren't born with, you know, so,

Nick Oswald (22:31):
And the fact that you take the time to detail it would be. So, I mean, you know, you get a protocol there are protocols that tell you how to, but to do a Western block and you'll find them everywhere. What we're talking about is taking the time to figure out all the little bits and pieces that you have get little tricks and things that you've gained over by experience and incorporating those into some sort of article that people can then digest all of those things that you have, that you've micro innovations. If you like that you've made for yourself. That's one of the things that we we're we're looking at when we come, when we get these articles, because obviously our Western blot has a kind of standard protocol, but there are all sorts of little tweaks and variations on it. And that's what we're trying to capture here,

Kenneth Vogt (23:20):
Right? So we've got one more charisma factor that I want to draw attention to. And this is one that people think of is the standard charisma being passionate. That is somebody who's intensive and ardent and fervent. If that's a quality you possess by all means share it with people, it's magnetic, it's infectious people, people will gravitate to it. So if you're passionate about what you're doing, share that. And, and as we know, you can be passionate about the most generic things. Things that others might think are boring. And if you've ever been in a situation where somebody tells you that they're excited about something that, that your knee jerk reaction was, is boring. You actually go, you're excited about that. Wait a minute, tell me about that. How, how are you excited about that? You know, it's interesting, you know, and, and sometimes we find ourselves like, wow, I never thought to be excited about that, but a kind of is, you know, so you can, you can bring that kind of energy to, to a situation and people will come along.

(24:30):
And we've now the other thing about this, we've all been on the receiving end of charisma. You've all seen this in your life and realized I followed that person. I went along with them. What, how did they get that power over me? Well, this is how, and if there were, and if they were good and decent person, it wasn't to take advantage of you. It was just like, they just caught you. They caught you up in the river that they were flowing down with. And, and you came with them. And so, you know, that's, that's what this can do for you. You will find people that don't even want to come along, coming along with you and helping you and giving you advantages that, that you might not have been able to create on your own where you were gonna, you were going to need help. And without that help, you couldn't have got it done. Well, this is how you'll get it done. So go ahead, Nick.

Nick Oswald (25:27):
No, no, I'm just agreeing with you.

Kenneth Vogt (25:31):
Listen to that, I brought him along.

Nick Oswald (25:35):
There's nothing more to add.

Kenneth Vogt (25:38):
So just to, to run down the list again, being admirable, being commanding, being communicative, being faithful, being innovative, being passionate. Now I know you can listen to that list and you can pick out one, two, three, that yes, I can do that. I, or I'm already doing that. Well great do that.

Nick Oswald (26:06):
Yeah. I think that's a really important point, Ken is that there will be one of those you're already doing, and then it's important to know that you don't actually have to change anything other than realize that that's what you're doing. And that's why anyone who is attracted to you in a, you know, who wants to in a way that they feel an affinity with you. That's one of the reasons why they feel that, you know, that quality is that that would be accurate.

Kenneth Vogt (26:33):
Yeah, definitely.

Nick Oswald (26:34):
Yeah. And so, so you're already doing that. It's just realizing that that's the, then it's much easier to, when you realize that you have one that you're already doing, it's easy. That's a good place to start to start turning up the volume of it on that. Okay. So how do I be more admirable in terms of, you know, I'm already being admirable. I can see that, how can I turn that up a little bit more, just 1%. And that started to move in the right direction and also being aware of when you're doing that, when you're being displaying, that prop admirability, how that being aware of how that is affecting people, and then that is built your confidence, that you can do this, and then you can go onto the next the one that's next closest to you that you're already doing maybe a little bit, maybe that's being communicative. And and then you can start to do the same via, just turn that up a little bit, be aware of how that's ex that's bring drawn people towards you. For me. The one, when I realized being passionate was one of my my main charisma strengths. That was really amazing.

(27:41):
Cause it's like, well, that's really easy for me to do. And I didn't realize that that influenced people. And, and then, and then I could start seeing, wow, okay. Actually, when I really am getting into something that I'm, I really care about that you can, you can feel people coming towards you you know, when you're talking to them about or whatever. And I think that that is that, that for me gave me the, cause I, I started off this thinking, yeah, charisma, that's not, I don't have the flashy teeth you know, the kind of the rock star thing and or, or film star thing. And and, and when I realized, when I got the idea that displaying passion was a way to do it. It was like, ah, that really opened up for me. And and then you can make it scientific. You can look at the whole list and try and figure out ways that you can increase all of these to even by a little bit. And you'll start seeing feel more self confidence and more affinity and more connection with people.

Kenneth Vogt (28:46):
Exactly. So one of the things you were talking about there to just the overall principle is just get present to your, your natural charisma. The stuff that you're doing by accident stop doing it, accidentally start doing it on purpose, start being here and now recognizing that, Hey, this is the time to do this. This is the time to be passionate. This is the time to be innovative. You know that and make sure you take positive advantage of those situations at that time. Now there's some stuff that is just that just to help you get yourself in the right space. One of the things that you've got to do in these situations where you're dealing with other people, especially if you feel like that's not a strength for you is get physically comfortable. So if you're, if you're in an environment where you're not physically comfortable, you're going to have a hard time exhibiting your charisma.

(29:42):
So make sure you're comfortable. And you know, that could be, that could be simple things. It may be that, Hey, have a comfortable chair to sit in, wear the right shoes? You know being an environment where it's not too hot or too cold or too humid, or too dry, pay attention to your environment because that's going to constantly be distracting. So if you've created an environment that's comfortable and safe and you know, allows, you know, it's maybe it's not too noisy or, or you know, or, you know, it doesn't, it doesn't have distracting factors in it that will help you. One of the worst distracting factors that we have in our lives are all these devices we use, you know, these, if you really need to connect with somebody to get them to come along, get your phone on silent, get it, get it on vibrate at least, or turn it off.

(30:38):
If you can, is this, that, there's nothing that hurts your connection with somebody worse than when your phone rings and you go, Oh, excuse me. I need to take this. The message is, and you're not important. This is, you know and even if you don't take the call, if they can hear it ringing there, sometimes they get nervous. They start feeling is that important. Maybe that's something they should take that, you know, that's more important than dealing with me. We want people to feel important. It's, it's, it's one of the ways that that, that charisma can be effectively wielded is by making them feel important, you know? And, and whether they're important because, you know, they're the, your boss and therefore are important with a capital I, where they're important and that you're treating them as a peer, you treating them as somebody who's worthy of attention.

(31:32):
You know, that that's, that's part of, of this process. And, you know, being, being faithful is a good example of that. A faithful person will, will not denigrate anyone. Everyone is worthy of their attention. So whatever you got to create in that environment, something as simple as looking people in the eye, when you talk to them, someone who won't look you in the eye, ultimately that makes you nervous. You don't know if you can trust them and, and you have to establish trust and let's begin part of being faithful. If you want to have, if you want to be charismatic,

Nick Oswald (32:11):
An interesting point for you know, when you're doing presentations as a scientist or as anyone, but, you know, that's an important part of being a scientist and to establish credibility. The very easiest thing to do is just to start making eye contact with people in the room, because you've, we've all been to presentations where the presenter is not making eye contact, and it doesn't matter how good the work is. You just lose the, just lose a bit of personal credibility, disconnected from them and a bit of personal affinity. And not that it's a huge multiplier on, on how effective, how effective people will take up what you're presenting. So, you know, small steps can get big returns in that regard.

Kenneth Vogt (32:57):
Yeah, indeed. I, another thing too, that, and this is interesting. Y'all may not know this, but Nick and I are not even on the same continent right now, so it's not like we're sitting in the studio together and we can look at each other and interact with each other, but I've found as I'm sitting here and he's saying certain things, I'm nodding along.

(33:18):
And that's something you should do when you're in physical presence with people, give them signals that you're hearing them, that you're listening, that you're paying attention to them. And that could just, you know, that could be with something as simple as a nod or, or you know, just a, a look of, of intent, you know, of intensity like, Oh, you know, like that was an important point. So where you really heard it, be physically demonstrative of your, of your connection with people and, and they will feel it. Another thing you can do is ask them clarifying questions. So when you're engaged with somebody, if you start asking them questions to like, Hey, I'm going to understand better what you're saying to me here that builds people up. They really feel a connection with you. And they feel like you really care about what they have to say. And so, you know, when I say clarifying questions, I don't mean interrogation. Like, no. Why, why would you think that was accurate? You know, that's not a clarifying question. Oh, that's a, that's a,

(34:25):
Then that's a derogatory question, but it's like, Oh, so you got that result. How did you get there? What did, what did you have to do to set that up? You know, okay, now you're, you're saying to them, I, I think what you're saying is important and I want to understand it better. And so that helps to establish an established charisma with somebody. And then one other thing I will add is don't fidget. If you're, if you're looking like I'm uncomfortable, I want to get outta here. I want to get away from you. I've got more important things to do, stop it.

(35:01):
And there's no magical answer. Well, how do we stop fidgeting? The answer is stop it, have some self control. And if you'd like, you really don't want to be engaged with somebody that that's something to add. You really need to look at. If you're in a situation where you feel like you need to have some charisma with somebody, and yet you don't want to engage with them. Well, you need to take a couple of steps back and figure out what am I doing here? What is this about? Do I really care about bringing this person along and having this person help me or do I not? Because if you don't, well, then stop, stop trying to do a halfway job of being charismatic in front of them and just don't, but, you know, pick, pick a side. So I think that will, that will wrap up. We have to say about charisma for today, unless you have something else that you want to add. Nick,

Nick Oswald (36:01):
I just, I would just say that this is another, again, we're wrapping up another great tool that Ken has put together over years of experience and observation. Again, it's not tool is it's not, that's an absolute truth. It's a tool and you can see how that works for you. And it's, it gives you some controls that you can try out for yourself, some knobs that you can try and turn and see if you can turn up the volume on various things and, and see what effects you get. And again, the whole theme of this thing is that we're giving you tools that you can then experiment on yourself with be scientific it will, take some effort. It's not, this is, you know, there's a lot of self help type stuff out there. And the sort of the sort of message is if you just buy this book, then you will and read the book, then this will change your life.

(36:56):
And it doesn't work like that. What you need to do is understand these tools that we're giving you here and and use them and practice them on a day to day basis. And you know, again, this is, this is just one in the series of, of great tools that Ken has put together. So we will be diving deeper into how to use these tools and different experiences with them. And we will be doing that in the The Happy Scientist Facebook page, which you can join at facebook.com/thehappyscientist all one word, please go there and join us. And and if you think this stuff will be of use to you and we'll be looking at it from all sorts of different angles in there, but yeah, thanks again, Ken, for, you know, for sharing this insight again, as the whole basis of this podcast is that this is something I've found personally very useful, or, you know, the things that you're coming out with here. And so we want to share it with the scientific community in general. We'd love to hear your feedback on what you think and

Kenneth Vogt (38:09):
Yeah. Especially your experiences with it. It's not just what you think about it, but what have you experienced with it, including experiences with like, Hey, this isn't working for me. I would really love to hear about that.

Nick Oswald (38:22):
Definitely.

New Speaker (38:24):
And we can help you with that too.

Nick Oswald (38:25):
Yeah. And one other piece of housekeeping is that for for this episode and charisma factors, we will have, we have a graphic that outlines all the charimsa factors and the sub qualities of each factor. And gives you a little bit more of something that you can attempt to, that you can use to kind of figure this out for yourself. And that will, that is available on this podcast episode page, which is episode nine, which you can find at Bitesizebio.com/thehappyscientist. And if you go into the show notes and it'll be in there.

Kenneth Vogt (39:05):
Excellent.

Nick Oswald (39:06):
So I think we'll wrap up there. Thanks again, Ken, for another great episode.

Kenneth Vogt (39:10):
Thank you.

Nick Oswald (39:11):
Take care, everyone.

Intro/Outro (39:18):
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