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Nick Oswald
00:39 Hello, and welcome to the happy scientist podcast from bitesizebio, if you want to become a happier, healthier and more productive scientist, you are in the right place. I'm Nick Oswald the founder of bitesizebio.com and with me is the driving force of this podcast Mr Kenneth Vogt my friend, mentor and founder of the coaching company Vera Claritas. Today's episode is called When should I speak up.
Nick Oswald
01:04 So Ken, speak up, what's this all about.
Kenneth Vogt
01:08 Alright, well, I was thinking about this, the other day because Nick you brought something up about this and it's funny you put it in my head and then forgot you did so.
Nick Oswald
01:19 or don't realize.
Kenneth Vogt
01:21 Yeah well, I mean this this is kind of what happens sometimes you know there's something that we notice and we set something in motion that really can matter that can make things happen so you have to decide when do I do that when do I not do that, because there are times when to do so, can be problematic can be even dangerous can be harmful to your career. It can be harmful to friendships are our other relationships, but then there are other times when did not speak up. There, because other problems for you, you something you really care about. And you don't bother to speak up and then something goes wrong and you'll you forever beating yourself about man, I should have said something I could have made a difference and I could have stopped this thing for this negative thing from happening so the question is when should I speak up.
Nick Oswald
02:15 So really, we're talking about when you know when is it time to say what you think versus hold your tongue kind of.
Kenneth Vogt
02:23 Yeah exactly Okay, and you know there's always those moments when you when you figure well I got to pick my battles, but it isn't always about negative things it might be about. About positive things to it might be you could start something really good happening, if you were the first person to say hey you know, we should do X or as anybody thought about do in and that's kind of what you did with this you brought this topic of me, and you set something in motion, you know, there was no downside, for you and this particular case. But, then again, we wouldn't be doing this episode of yet and brought it up so there's that.
03:04 That being said, I want to start this conversation off by saying that action can ruin your life. So many of us have some have some things that we think are really important. That that we really, really wish were different in the world, or I say in the world, it can be in your company, it could be in your lab it can be a new industry, it could be in your University in areas any number of possibilities, where it is. And, and so It really matters to you, but it doesn't necessarily matter to other people and so. If you get on your soapbox about this, you may find that other people just sign up for it, and it could hurt your feelings you like, why does why don't other people see how important this is how come everybody else doesn't want to save the whales, just like me, you know or whatever it may be, you know it can be, it can be something you know very call it airy fairy or it can be something really, really substantial and very specific something measurable something you feel like everybody should get this because we can put we can put a ruler to this and no other it's a good thing or a bad thing.
04:24 But the fact is, is you just having passionate about it it's not enough, and if you just let your passions run everything you will find that people will not respond positively, you know occasionally you'll find folks that will have a similar passion to you, but chances are they already had that passion you didn't convince them to have it, and for those who don't have that passion to just going to look at you, and think this is some kind of crackpot some kind of imbalanced person about this topic and even if they don't go that far, we might just go out well you know that's just Fred being Fred you know we don't worry about that you know he rambles on about this and. Then it goes in one ear and out the other and you don't actually accomplish anything so there's no value to you to speaking up in a situation like that Now, the other side of this, though, is that if you stay for yourself that can ruin your life too if it's something you really care about And you never seen anything and you just and you just you know just stuff it back down every time that that your concern gets challenged and often it's being challenged by people don't even know they're challenging it didn't they didn't even know that they're being a problem Well, that can cause you a lot of harm and ultimately that's going to harm your career, if you are constantly feeling repressed that repression it's going to show up and other parts of your work and other parts of your life and you're going to get to a point where you just you just automatically circle, the wagons and you'll circle, the wagons and in situations where you don't need to and where all you have to do is say they wait a minute we should go this way, instead of that way and everybody would go oh yeah okay let's do that. You know, so you can't just cut yourself off either you but you got to know when do I speak up when don't I speak up.
06:27 I was listening to a podcast to an interview with a psychologist and author his name is Ian McGilchrist and he wrote a really fascinating book it's called the master in the emissary the divided brain in the making of the Western world and It covers that that notion that is popularly understood that that there's a two sides of the brain there's a left brain and right brain and the way it's commonly understood is that the right brain is the creative side and the Left brain is the logical side. But, frankly, that that is a simplification, to the point of getting the wrong picture it's not really how the brain works, in fact, and you know the notion of the left side of your brain controls the right side of your body, and vice versa, is also not even exactly correct partially correct, but not exactly so there's one thing about it, and that that this book covers pretty well.
07:34 And is really important to recognize and it's really important for you as scientists to recognize because so many scientists would be what we would call classically left brained that is their logical they're orderly and you have to be in the business of science, you you've got to be able to do things in a replicable fashion, and you know all of that would seem to be a left-brain kind of tasks.
08:03 But one thing that that Dr McGilchrist figured out was the way the brain works is a little bit different than that the division between left and right is a little bit different, and it goes like this, the Left brain is focused on specifics it's it drills down to the details on whatever you got going on right in front of you, whereas the right brain is more big picture it's it seeing the whole landscape and so you can imagine, for you know early an early mammal needed to know the difference between itself and food And so, when I got into some food and needed to know where it was and understand where it was and be able to focus on that and make sure that it got the full advantage of that food that was there. At the same time, though, it needed to be aware of the general surroundings, in case there's a predator around And need to know the difference between itself and the predator, and so the right brain could always be there and deal with it.
09:10 The uncertain world and unexpected happenings, whereas the Left brain is dealing with Here are the specific I found the berries I’m going to eat all the berries I’m going to focus on the berries that are that are right, you know that's the very left brain part of all that working on So if you can imagine, then You can have passion about something which can be which can be a very left brain thing very specific, but if you can see, the big picture and say okay well How is it going to impact my world if I charge up this hill right now if I tilt to this one mil what what's going to be the outcome.
09:50 So that's something the other side of your brain can do and that side of the brain is the manager to have side and we've talked a lot. And in past episodes but how important it is for you to have a strong imagination and for you to be open to discovery and it's kind of a right brain thing which goes against you know blocking and tackling kind of every day very specific make sure you do things in orderly fashion in a replicable fashion in a safe fashion a clean fashion, you know all those little left brain kind of things so I’ll pause there for a minute and see if you have anything you want to weigh in on there Nick apart from that's quite interesting about the left and right now.
Nick Oswald
10:37 The Left and Right brain side of things yeah but in the in regards to the speak up don't speak up thing it just struck me that again, this is another thing that we're talking about where it's a slider is a sliding scale speak up don't speak up and you and you want to find the sweet spot for you, you don't want to be the sort of person who always speak your mind or Always or, you know as the maniacally speaking about what you're passionate about, but you don't want to be someone who doesn't. You know who just stifles your opinion, all the time you've got to find the sweet spot and you know, the more we go through these episodes the more it's kind of striking me that this is like a life what you're describing here is life's big mixing desk, if you like.
Kenneth Vogt
11:24 And yeah.
Nick Oswald
11:25 Each slide each track is a or each channel as a as a different aspect of how you live, your life and it's all about we're with you about being aware that these are all sliding scales and getting a feel for where do you want to be on each one.
Kenneth Vogt
11:43 Right and right now everybody's going to get a gut feeling that they have, but how comfortable, this is that it's a sliding scale for some of you that sounds very uncomfortable you'd like it to be very give me a give me a formula something of just be black and white that I can know. For sure whether to speak up or not whereas others of you will like the idea that it's open and subjective and, In the difference, there is basically lets me bring your pressing the side if you're doing everything on the Left side, all the time and everything's got to be you know to protocol and to formula you're going to find a very frustrating life.
12:29 On the other hand, if you don't put any of that in place you're also going to have a very frustrating life you can't you know you're going to find other people, especially when you're surrounded by the people that are That are protocol driven they're going to have a very difficult time with you, if you don't at least some of the time work within the boundaries. So, you know again we're often recommending that you go outside the boundaries for the benefits of discovery and imagination, but there are times when you do need to play by the rules, you need to colour in the lines and so let's think about this when it comes to speaking up. There's two things you can consider about anything that you that you might want to bring up that is what's the cost of speaking up and what are the benefits of speaking up And there's also a cost, and that speaking up and benefits to not speaking up so you got to you've got several different ways, you can look at it sometimes one of those things is going to leap out to you is like this is so worth it, to speak up about.
13:40 I’m going to just I don't care what the cost is I’m going for it and other cases it's going to be man, I will be so much better off of it shut up you know and it'll again it'll be so clear to you that it just it won't be worth the cost to hang yourself out there, but You know that's what we need to look at, so we if we first start off with the idea of okay let's look at the cost of speaking up So you see something And you go, you know we're really doing this wrong you're in the lab and if we would just If we would you know get this better piece of equipment, we would solve this constant problem we're having all the time And so, do you think Okay, the cost of speaking up there, while you get a look at the cost to yourself what's going to happen to me if I speak up You got to look at what's the cost of the group what's going to happen to the people I work with here to, and you know start with just your peers can be your boss, you know can be Other people that whoever's involved with your group there and then you can look at what's the cost of the world if I speak up but Is there will there be any harm done out in the general populace my really shaking things up here is just going to create a stir that's going to get across a ripple effect that is negative.
15:00 You can process all those things, and they don't always all apply, you know whether or not you get a new flow cytometer or probably doesn't impact the world maybe it will, and so what you're tracking what you're doing in your lab, I guess, but you know you can look at that and you get to look at things to the just because you know I’ll man I would love for us to have a better piece of equipment here that's really good for me but that is going to be a big chunk of our budget and boy that's going to impact everybody that's going to that's going to mean there's other things we're going to have to give up and, by the way, there be other things I’m going to have to give up, you know so you look at those factors And I hope your career is getting to a point where the decisions you're making actually matter in the world where you can look at these things and say wow If we go this way it's we're going to make the world a better place or.
15:59 If we fail to go this way is not going to make the world a better place, you know, or even do harm, you know it's if you live in such a life, you have a rich life you're making a difference out there you're doing something in even if you find you're constantly frustrated like Well, I see this, you know I saw some mean that went around that basically said, you know how many movies, have you watched. There were a disaster movie that all that started off with some scientists saying we got a problem, and nobody was listening to them, so you know, maybe you're in that kind of environment Where you feel like there's an alarm bell you need to That you need to set off that's awesome yeah I realized recognizing that something could be really bad doesn't sound like fun, but the fact is, if you're over the person recognizing it and you can enrol others in recognizing it, you can really make a difference in the world, so You can weigh that in you know the cost of speaking up versus the benefits of speaking of you know the cost of speaking up might be that people are going to think I’m a crackpot people are going to think I’m a zealot.
17:21 Or maybe some people are going to think I’m wrong And you get to process all that decide whether or not that matters and who else that might impact, you know what might impact the people you work with will impact the reputation of Your laboratory or your university or your company, you know those are all things that you can process But on the other side you got to look at what happens if I don't speak up what's the cost of that And again, the cost to yourself might just be a little loss of self-respect to get it can be as simple as that, but that's not unimportant.
18:00 If you feel like you know what I’m just a cog in the machine nobody cares what I think I’m just I I’m just beaten down here I’m just you know, a slave at the yours, you know that's going to impact quality of your work for the rest of your life you're never going to be somebody who, who was a great discover you're never going to be somebody who's highly productive if that's the way you see the world that you've just been that you've just been you know pounding in your around peg it's been pounded into a square hole So you got to you got to look at that you got to look at the cost to your group, you know what happened if I don't say something about this, something goes wrong and an army and The whole group get smeared with the black mark, it may matter or the world itself, you may you may look and say if I don't speak up about this, who will And I can I can give a little bit of an anecdote from my own life on this, you know I I’ve started many businesses in my life and quite successfully so and I got to a point where we're starting we're starting to the business and I just couldn't find anything I was passionate about, and so I didn't do anything for a while and then I had read so many books on entrepreneurship and on time management and I realized there's some things that I knew that I’d never read any book I’d never heard me lecture and any seminar.
19:41 And I realized, then that I’ve learned some things that weren't commonly taught in the world, and I thought, if I don't start teaching them when I’m gone these concepts and ideas will be gone I’ve got to speak up, so I saw the cost to the world if I didn't do something And I’m just I’m just somebody who does you know management consulting and I say it that way, because you know what you're doing, especially in bio science is so critical and so important and so few people can do it, that if you've come up with something new and you never speak up and it never gets known in the world what it costs to the world that could be yeah so I’ve been reading an interesting book here recently, in fact, with this notes to it's called The Body by Bill Bryson And he's just gone through and he's interviewed so many scientists and doctors and in and investigated so many people discovered things about the human body, which are amazing and fascinating some of them now are common knowledge, even among lay people like myself but, but some of them are There only known to specialists, but if they hadn't been known to specialists our world would have would have been really It would have really cost the word a lot oh there, there have been and they've been people who seem extremely under-qualified could discover things we discovered things people who weren't good at what they did They didn't run good experiments they didn't do good studies, they didn't know how, but they have passionate about a particular topic in the learn things and they figured things out so you know that's something to consider.
Nick Oswald
21:36 I have kind of two in my mind to kind of what would you see applications of this, if you like, or ways in which this kind of could play out, you know this kind of phenomenon of speaking out or not speaking out could play out, and you know, one of those you see quite a lot is you know heated discussions heated topics like you know, especially in the obvious one is political topics, and you know you people are very passionate about one end of the scale, or the other, or one cause or another and You know they either they can either be very outspoken or just keep their mouth shut about it or somewhere In the middle and I guess one of the things that you see one feature that I notice a lot of that kind of spectrum is that Maybe, just as important as speaking about and given respect to what you think is actually respecting what other people think as well.
22:44 Because a lot of the times, you see, you know that morphing into demonizing people who don't have the same opinion as you and polarizing Opinion so that that's kind of like a bigger world kind of view of that this kind of particular flavour for me, but maybe zoom back down towards more the lab Setting so we're talking about being a happy scientists here so for me, the whole thing is all valid it's if it's you know Getting this right in the things that you care about and the bigger picture, but also getting a right in the things that are going to make a difference in your career as well if your resume it down into the lab we've kind of touched on this previously we're about the idea of putting your opinion in to the pot when you know when it's a lab discussion or when you notice something in the lab or something in the strategies that are being used in your group or whatever the isn't right, and you can either Speak out and risk being wrong or risking right or on or not seeing it not saying anything.
23:59 And again, I think I’ve mentioned this before, but I think it's a good one, it was a pivotal moment for me, but That first job I was in I wasn't the expert I could see I worked for a small company that was making a device I could see something straight away that wasn't that was That was a wrong direction, the whole company was going in with the basic strategy that we're using and I didn't say anything for about six months And because I didn't thought I didn't know I wasn't not I thought I didn't have the right, yet to see anything and then I spoke up and then that that became the change of direction and it wasn't like a thing or something it was just a new pair of eyes on the problem. I didn't respect myself there enough to think that I had something to see their dog it's interesting actually that in both those things that I’m seeing that there that respect comes into respecting other people's opinion and respecting of your own opinion and your own you know the validity of those.
Kenneth Vogt
24:59 Right this notion of earning your right to speak up if someone is about to run over in the crosswalk do you do you ponder whether or not you have the right to say to them, you know you're in danger, if you take another step no you just take an action, and if you were wrong you're wrong but So what did you know The potential cost of that harm was so great that you're willing to do whatever has to be done, you know That you're putting in putting your hands on someone who has to push them out of the way might be something you would never do you never pushed somebody. But in this situation, you just have to and so ponder that sometimes even you know when it's something that doesn't feel that life and death and go do I am afraid to be wrong here, am I afraid to have somebody say all your us you're not seeing you correctly. What harm would that be what you know use your example Nick What if you had spoken up months earlier and they'd said Oh well, it's because you don't understand this, You will learn something the downside wasn't really that great this notion that you hadn't earned your right didn't really matter that much and you could have actually gained something even from speaking of earlier if you had been wrong So you know, and again I don't want to beat you about that I know you've already.
Nick Oswald
26:35 I definitely learned my lesson And yeah it was one of those it's just one another kind of thing you know, a very practical way that that played out in another company I worked for, and I was a bit more experienced, then, but I saw one other person that company who used to encourage all of the everyone, and you know when we had a lobbying or a group meeting. That you'd always have the wallflowers who wouldn't see anything wouldn't ask any questions wouldn't make any comments on what the speakers, speaking about and he Had you know, one of my colleagues what a great thing of making kind of a rule for all of his students, that they had to ask at least one question. And that kind of forced them to put themselves forward, because when you're asking a question you're implying that you know something about what's been talked about right, and so it forced them to kind of get over that hurdle of being scared to be seen to be wrong.
27:31 Right and I thought that was a great thing it really helped people to grow and actually made the lab meeting a lot more enjoyable. Because I used to do it as well, then I said okay so i've got to ask at least one question here and i'll go along with what he's saying and and it makes you then take things in a different way and so that can be taken out to the bigger picture of what's your role in your grip Or you just you just adore or are you are you someone who's going to put in ideas, whether you whether they end up being the right thing or not or you're going to contribute in terms of innovation or you're going to contribute in terms of opinion or you know, whatever it is that drives the bigger picture of the of the lab that you're in an extra similar relationship or anything really.
28:18 So what do you want to be and again it's like so many of these things, the thing that stops us the inhibition of you know, fear of being wrong or fear of being sinks into relax. Right and you can train yourself out of that.
Kenneth Vogt
28:35 And you bring up something else it's interesting there that you know. Just statistically speaking probably most people who are listening to this podcast are those are the worker bees that they're not in a leadership position unnecessarily, but some percentage of you are And are you encouraging people to do that are you encouraging people to ask questions and bring up things and to offer opinions are you squelching them, are you stifling them, are you making it. You, making it so costly for people to speak up that they never do well think how much you're costing yourself by failing and take advantage of that extra set of eyes, you have there so.
Nick Oswald
29:16 yeah I mean if you look at it from the other way around, you know it's we're talking here about You know when should I speak up I you know again going back to what I said era that's about your respecting your own opinion enough to be have the guts to voice it Also, you could equal, we could equally be talking about as from a management position from your you know if you're the group leader. When should I allow other people to speak up and encourage other people to speak up and that's just because if you think you're right all the time you're so right that that you don't want to hear other people's views on how things could be done on the front, or whatever, then you're just as you're you know and the truth is that you're. Just as wrong, as the person who thinks that he's Never right and so doesn't speak up yeah.
Kenneth Vogt
30:05 And you know part of it might be a look at it. I don't want to. Because you need to be pestered by stupid questions or silly ideas. I understand, however, sometimes silly ideas, turn out to be really interesting or even if the idea itself isn't that great it can spawn something else, so it creates opportunity for new discovery and you know that matters.
Nick Oswald
30:33 It's funny you say that because the you know, the thing that occurred to me of the first company I’ve worked with, and it was identity that ID from once it sounded so stupid. That idea, the alternative idea that I had that that's why he's not about that actually was the solution and so yeah.
Kenneth Vogt
30:50 There you go.
Nick Oswald
30:52 So more fun, in the end, though.
Kenneth Vogt
30:54 Well yeah you know when a story like that that is a good outcome is great, but you know, the fact is, I bet if you search through memory, you can find some times when you didn't speak up and you never spoke up, of course, and now you don't have any story to tell.
Nick Oswald
31:11 yeah, of course, what I want to talk about the good ones.
Kenneth Vogt
31:13 yeah but I mean I’m seeing him for ourselves, we don't remember those things Then the things that never happened we don't we don't even know what we lost. In those settings So yeah There was an earlier episode, we did episode 16, which is the challenge differentiating between science and scientific opinion and we have to recognize. That as much as you may be dealing with science all day it doesn't it isn't all chiselled in Granite some of it is opinion And, and there are very, very erudite intelligent educated people who differ in those opinions and so it's really valuable to hear The opinions of other people that you don't agree with, and the converse of, that is, you are denying people value if you don't bring up an opposing opinion, sometimes it will it's good for everybody, even if they don't change their opinion because it if somebody hears the opposing view.
32:21 And it may help them strengthen their position, it may help them realize the how the how right they are, and you may think well gee I don't want to help my opponent do better will actually you do, because at the end of the day, I hope that what you are for is what is, what is the most true what is the most accurate And even if you bring up something that's inaccurate if it if it solidifies the position of understanding better what is correct You have you have done a service there's still the upside opportunity there, even though you, you know you may not be in a winning side of an argument, just as it were.
Nick Oswald
33:03 And I mean they The same goes true, then of you know, respecting other people who you know, respecting and listening to their opinion of opposing opinions you know and giving them air and letting them be you know, an ether without demonizing them or you know, without polarizing you know you can agree to disagree and then and be aware, I think one of the when we talked about the know the difference in science and scientific opinion is that I think we sometimes it's quite easy to lose sight of the gap between what is a scientific fact scientifically proven fact and opinion and it's. The result in some people tend to allow one to reach into the other for almost certainly tell low opinion to which into sounding like it's a fact because it came from a scientist.
Kenneth Vogt
34:04 Well that's right, you know they used to be all disease came from the miasma yeah you know it's bad air, but that was the prevailing opinion, but it was it was an opinion and, but it was treated like a fact.
Nick Oswald
34:20 What was the best of I was we were talking about last episode, it was what you don't know you don't know yeah and this occurred to me afterwards and it kind of kind of resonates in this context as well, and it was my high school physics teacher actually who said that you can never see that something is isn't possible, you can see that he's talking about a technological advancement that advances, You can ever say that something's not possible, you can only see that it's not possible with the current technology.
34:52 Sure, and I think that that really this this really speaks to that because today's scientific factors to models or well wasn't quite the way we thought it was it can be anyway And so you have to have a bit of humility and understanding that it's possible that, even if it looks solid that there's something that we're missing.
Kenneth Vogt
35:13 Indeed, and no I came up myself in the Silicon Valley world, and I saw the world dreaming set out 20 times and then I saw that started to be transferred to biotech And you know companies like Genetech came along, and some others that were being venture funded, just like software companies, which I thought was our special little niche Why was I are on a whole new world has it has as blossom there with tremendous ideas and you know, even if you don't always agree with them, they are pushing forward The horizons of knowledge and we're gaining from these things, and yes, sometimes they can be a little dangerous but that's why we need people like you to be plugged in in speaking up on it's time to speak up.
Nick Oswald
36:03 People like all of us, we all have a viewpoint and yeah.
Kenneth Vogt
36:09 it's all part of the spectrum yeah so one other little thing I wanted to bring up In the show notes you'll see a link to the two books, I mentioned the mastering is emissary in the body. That you'll also see a link to the Jordon Petersen Podcast and then wonder why is that there wow the reason that's there is because the reason I knew about the McGilchrist book was because of an interview That Dr Peterson did with that cubicle Chris and he's got a lot of great interviews, there were some really, really interesting people so even if even if Jordan Peterson is not your cup of tea, although you might be the people, the interviews are really fascinating and that's that he is one of those people that is he's a contrarian and he's not afraid to Go back and forth somebody he's not trying to win points he's not trying to beat them, he is trying to open up the possibilities rub understanding, I hope, that's what we're doing here too and, at the end of the day, the more you understand the happier you're going to be its running around confused and frustrated about life is Just not lead to happiness.
Nick Oswald
37:29 Will pick up on these ramblings and can get something out of them, I think that went really well. You can so this episode is number 32 and as Ken mentioned, so you know the outline of the chat but also these links are in the show notes, which you can get by going to bitesizebio.com/thehappyscientist and then finding episode 32 in there click on that page and that will be in the show notes will be in there. You can also find us on facebook.com/thehappyscientistclub, and they are you can you can you can contact us and tell us how amazing or How unhelpful this podcast was we were open to all opinions you feel free to voice them. And you can you know we will be putting up other types of content on there, as well as related to this, so if you find this useful then facebook.com/thehappinessclub is the place to go and the last thing, as always, is a reminder to look at episodes 1-9 if you haven't done so already and you find this type of content and interesting and helpful in the end we want to give you tools that can help them it you're happier and more productive scientists that's the idea episodes 1-9 have some foundational principles in there that are that you will find particularly useful and kind of resetting some of these or becoming aware of and setting some of these parameters that help you work more efficiently and in a more joyful way, so you can get them episodes 1-9 so again can thanks for another great episode and for speaking about.
Nick Oswald
39:20 And we'll catch you all next time.