How to Effectively Wield Your Ambition
This is the Happy Scientist podcast. Each episode is designed to make you more focused, more productive, and more satisfied in the lab. You can find us online at bitesizebio.com/happyscientist. Your hosts are Kenneth Vogt, founder of the executive coaching firm, Vera Claritas, and doctor Nick Oswald, PhD, bioscientist, and founder of Bite Size Bio.
Nick Oswald:Hello. This is Nick Oswald welcoming you to this Bite Size Bio webinar, which today is a live episode of the Happy Scientist podcast. If you want to become a hap happier, healthier, and more productive scientist, you're in the right place. With me, as always, is mister Kenneth Vogt. And in these sessions, we will hear from Ken mostly on principles that will help shape you for a happier and a more successful career.
Nick Oswald:And along the way, I'll pitch in with points from my personal experience as a scientist and from working with Ken myself. If you have any questions along the way, put them into the questions box on the side of your screen, and I will put them to Ken. Today, we will be covering how to effectively wield your ambition. Over to you, Kent.
Ken Vogt:Alright. Well, first off, Nick, I wanna point something out. You used to refer to me as mister Miyagi or Yoda or Gandalf or something in the introduction, and, well, maybe I'm being a little bit too ambitious here.
Nick Oswald:We can go back to that if you want.
Ken Vogt:And and even Nick got a little ambitious today and tried to start the start the podcast or the the webinar before before our producer was quite ready. So the point being, we wanna effectively wield our ambition. And there are times when, you know, excitement or just a desire to move forward causes you to be overly ambitious as far as the the rest of the world is concerned. And in the past, we've talked about humility, and we've recommended it, but that doesn't exclude healthy ambition. We we want you to be able to be ambitious in your career, and we want you to be ambitious in your field.
Ken Vogt:We want you to get things done in such a way that that, you can make a mark in the world and that you can make a difference for mankind. So if that's not ambitious, I don't know what is. So we're gonna unpack ambition and recognize that ambition is kinda like dynamite. It's extremely useful. It's very powerful, but it's also potentially dangerous.
Ken Vogt:And so we wanna make sure that that we have a grip on it. So I wanna start off then. Let's talk about the dangers of ambition. Now I'm sure that working in labs, almost everybody has seen a material safety data sheet, even I've seen them. I mean, there's some stuff you have to be you have to be careful with for various reasons.
Ken Vogt:And sometimes, you look at that MSDS, and it's it's almost silly. It's like, really, I had to be told that. It's just you know, it's obvious or it's so inconsequential that doesn't matter. But sometimes, when it comes to your ambitious and your your ambition in your career or in your present position, yeah, you've gotta pay attention to, well, is my ambition jeopardizing my relationships? You know, for instance, if if you appear so competitive that others are put off by that or are intimidated by that even, you know, that can that can be a danger.
Ken Vogt:You know, naked ambition is a powerful characteristic, but it can because of that, become overpowering. And whether it's overpowering for you or for your colleagues, you know, any it can show up in many ways for you. You can actually find your own ambition to be intimidating because you may find that sometimes you act out of ambition, and you regret the actions you took. It's like, I I should've thought about that first, or I I shouldn't have been so excitable. I I I should've I should've waited for a better moment.
Ken Vogt:So those are those are things that you have to watch for if you're gonna be effective with your ambition. Sometimes it has to do with the environment that you're in. There there are particular places, you know, it could be could be your lab. It could be your industry. It could be your your, your academic institution.
Ken Vogt:It could be your company, where ambition is really looked down upon or at least certain kinds of ambition. You need to be aware of the environment. What can I do that is where ambition is gonna at least not hurt me and hopefully do me some good? And I would make the argument that it's not even worth it. If it's not doing you some good, even if it isn't hurting you, why?
Ken Vogt:It takes energy. So, you know, you you wanna you wanna think about that. You can actually risk or even harm your reputation with ambition if you if you're using it inappropriately. There there is a time for everything under the sun, as Solomon said, and we wanna make sure that we use our ambition at times when it's appropriate. If you're in an environment where teamwork is extremely important, you you gotta be careful about when you show ambition because the outcome needs to be best for the team.
Ken Vogt:If you're ambitious for the team, that actually can be a better a better way of approaching it than just being ambitious for yourself individually. But even in that kind of environment, if you're in an environment where where you have to work with multiple teams, there still has to be an overall organizational connection there that isn't just about your team. It's it's not just about, you know, my department. So the those are all some dangers that we have to consider when we're gonna use ambition. But, you know, ambition is still it's so tasty.
Ken Vogt:It's it's it just has that siren song, that call to you. And, well, there's a reason for that. Right? There's an upside to ambition. So, yeah, here I've been here I've been been putting it down all all the way through this and playing games with y'all, but let's face it.
Ken Vogt:There's good things that come from being ambitious. When you get visibility, your opportunities increase. Yep. The it could be directly impacting your career, but it could just be about getting a better assignment, getting getting getting to do things that really interest you. So ambition allows you to be noticed when those assignments are being made.
Ken Vogt:So we we do wanna make some noise sometimes so that we are noticed by the powers that be and also so that, we're noticed among our peers. There's nothing inherently wrong with being competitive if you're competing for the purpose of, let's call it, greatness. If if you're just competing to win just out of selfish desire, that's that that's nothing to particularly write home about. But if you want to reach higher levels, if you wanna expand yourself, you wanna expand your group, you wanna expand your industry, you wanna you wanna take take it to new places, you wanna make new positive impacts, visibility will really help with that. Now once you're visible, you know, you wanna you only wanna be visible when you have a good reputation.
Ken Vogt:If you're visible with a bad reputation, it doesn't help you much. So, again, ambition helps you to hone your reputation. It makes you it helps you to start to realize there are things that won't will make me look better in the world, and there are things that I won't. So it it allows you well, it causes you to focus on your reputation and and to think about it and and to give it give it proper consideration. Yeah.
Ken Vogt:I'm sure you know some people that couldn't care less than anybody thinks about them, and I'm not even knocking that. But it does it does impact their opportunities in the future. And if they're also ambitious, but don't care what anybody thinks, boy, they better be wicked smart. They they better have evidence that they're worth putting up with. For most of us, though, especially if you if you're working in a group of smart people, they're all smart.
Ken Vogt:So you being smart isn't so special. So so that's not a reason for them to put up with you being quirky. Right? And in in many cases, the the quirks that we would prefer to have are are they're they're just not all that worth it. Is that, yeah, it would be nice, but, you know, some people like to to show up for work in a bathrobe and slippers, but, you know, it's it's a the cost is too high.
Ken Vogt:Another thing that ambition is good for is it can help you build valuable relationships. And that is other ambitious people, they see you and they see this is somebody I need on my team. This is or in some cases, this is a star I need to hitch my wagon to. If and, you know, you can use the support too. So it's relationships can go in all kinds of directions.
Ken Vogt:They can be peer. They can be subordinates. They can be superiors. If you can get noticed by the right kind of boss, that that kind of ambition can can really help you, and somebody else can help take you places. Another thing that can happen is your ambition doesn't have to be just about you.
Ken Vogt:It could be about your team, about your group, about your lab. If you're ambitious on behalf of the group, well, that the benefits of that ambition tend to splash onto you too. And because it's a a bit more it looks a bit more altruistic. It looks a bit more like it's not so selfish. You it is it's he put some rose colored glasses on things.
Ken Vogt:Things that might look kinda shaky if it was just about you can look better if it's about your group. So it's another effective way of of making use of ambition. So I just covered dangers and upside. So let me, let me let Nick weigh in here and see if he has anything he'd like to add.
Nick Oswald:No. I I think that I I guess that the only thing that I would say about the whole the whole subject is that, is for me personally and for, you know, any groups that I've worked in, what you don't want is to see someone who is trying to, be ambitious at the expense of other people. It's Mhmm. It's got to be through growing the pie for everyone. Otherwise, you're on thin ice.
Nick Oswald:You know?
Ken Vogt:Yeah. Well, I mean, yeah, there there are probably are moments when you it is a, a zero sum game where if you're gonna get benefited to somebody else, you're gonna have to be denied that benefit. That that that's our reality to to take note of. But, boy, really count the cost. Yeah.
Ken Vogt:Do do I really want do I wanna hurt this person, or I wanna make them an enemy? Do do I wanna just annoy them? You know, how how how bad will it be for them, and how how how much will I pay a price for that? So and, you know, something you can look at that and go, well, the it's not just about being a nice guy. It's like, well, that wouldn't be very nice to me.
Ken Vogt:Yeah. Well, that's that's worth considering, but being nice all the time is is not gonna get you real far.
Nick Oswald:Even just looking at it from a strategic point of view, though, if your job, if you're, sorry, if you're looking to be ambitious, if you're looking to to reach a goal, is the best strategy to compete or is the best strategy to look for ways that you can bring other people up with you or ways that you can just add value to the whole project or or company or group or whatever it is so that the you you know, you make your own reward, if you like.
Ken Vogt:Yeah. Exactly. I mean, the the fact is science is a very collaborative endeavor. So if you wanna be a lone wolf, if that's really your your leaning, I mean, you can do that, and there are certainly some famous scientists who are that. But, but the fact is, if you're gonna work with others, it it it may it may go easier.
Ken Vogt:Now I'm not recommending one over the other. If you could if you can make the lone wolf thing work for you and and you're a Nikola Tesla, go for it. But, not everybody's got that going for them. So, yeah, it it's it's worth taking a close look and deciding what's worth it and what isn't. So I wanted to talk about about the downsides and upsides, but from a little different direction, from the practical standpoint or the application stamp or what happens in the real world.
Ken Vogt:How do I make this work? So I'll start I will start with the dark side. There are times when you just need to pump the brakes when it comes to your ambition. You need to dial it back because you're you can do this based on watching results. Now you don't necessarily have to just be just go barreling in there and shouting about how smart you are and how great your ideas are and and and do damage.
Ken Vogt:And then, well, now you notice, well, how did others receive it? And they didn't receive it well. Okay. Well, I'll change now. Yeah.
Ken Vogt:But you kinda did some damage already. So, you know, try to be proactive about about your ambitions. Get try to align yourself out first. And remember, it's not just about what you meant or what you are trying to achieve. It's about how others receive it.
Ken Vogt:And it's you might think, well, why do I have to jump through that hoop? Because we're human, and humans are social. And you could do some damage with to your own reputation with 1 individual, and then it will spread. And you don't wanna do that. So there are times when you gotta when you have to pull back a little bit on your ambition or you gotta pull back on how you apply your ambition.
Ken Vogt:It's I'm I'm not saying to just kill it, you know, to just stop having any concern about getting anywhere with your life or in your field or, in your career. No. You you should be concerned about those things. It's just maybe sometimes you don't wanna be as loud as you've been. Yeah.
Ken Vogt:And granted, this doesn't apply to everybody. Some people, what they really need more than anything is to amp up their ambition. When to because there's there's a proper time to pump the brakes, but there there there are times when it is not proper. I just realized I spelled brakes wrong. Oh, boy.
Nick Oswald:I thought that was a pun. Never mind. So
Ken Vogt:so did I for a hot second. Like, wait a minute. I didn't make a pun? But, anyway okay. So this is an example of something that's interesting.
Ken Vogt:If you're ambitious and you make a mistake, you might think, oh god. The worst thing could happen is people are gonna notice. No. That's not the worst thing. The worst thing is that people notice and don't say anything.
Ken Vogt:Now it's just in the background. You never and you don't know where it's gonna pop up again. So if you find you do something wrong, the best thing you can do is get in front of it. You if you can own something yourself, and, again, this kinda goes back to the notion of humility. It doesn't take away from your ambition, but when when it is when you can note that, look, I made a mistake there.
Ken Vogt:Now right now, we if if nothing gets said about this, I I don't know how many people we have some back of their mind, like, can this guy not spell? What is going on here? You know? Now it's been taken apart and it's been made fun of, and it's it's lost its juice. It has it has no power over me now.
Ken Vogt:Now I look at these characters in front of this this car here and like, man, they are trying so hard. They're it's just over the top, and the car itself, oh my goodness. Is that really is that really necessary? So, you know, so there is a time when you dial back, and the dial back may be situational, like what we've been discussing here, but it it could be more general. You may realize this is an environment that is not gonna put up with ambition displayed in this way.
Ken Vogt:You know, you can't you can't in this particular environment, you can't be somebody that interrupts at meetings. It that that will be so frowned upon that that you'll never get anywhere, and you could destroy a lot of good you've done for yourself just by that one thing. You see, you start to realize, okay, there's certain ways, just because I think what the person who's speaking now is talking about is wrong, and is is going in the wrong direction doesn't mean I interrupt them doesn't mean I start talking over them. So and, again, you you're doing it that way, not because you're not right. Because if you're you could use I'm right as an excuse for almost anything.
Ken Vogt:But it's like, how will it be received by others? How will they perceive what you're doing? What will they think your motivation is? Do they do they think your motivation is because you really care about what's real and what's right, or do you just care about winning? Do you just care about looking good in front of other people?
Ken Vogt:You know, that that doesn't help with the goals of your ambition. So let's flip to the positive side. There there is a time when this when you should be turning it up. And so you wanna look for what are the right moments to demonstrate my ambition. And, yeah, so part of that is to look at at what kind of things should I imply apply ambition to?
Ken Vogt:Well, it might be, say there's a certain project milestone that you need need to meet. Demonstrating ambition about that is a good thing, and it can it can inspire confidence in others. Like, we we've gotta make it to the moon. We're gonna make it. You know?
Ken Vogt:You know, having that clear milestone can can be helpful in focusing your ambition. Now there may be times when ambition will absolutely advance your career, and so you might look for opportunities then. Well, if I if if advancing my career is my goal and I'm ambitious about that, how should I do that? Are there speaking opportunities that I could take? Are there there projects I could volunteer for?
Ken Vogt:Can can I offer take the lead on certain things and certain initiatives? You know, Those those are the ways to make your ambitions function usefully in your career. Now you may too have have goals that let's call them more professional in career. That is you wanna be well known in your in your industry. You and you wanna be not just well known, but but respected.
Ken Vogt:Well, finish that paper. You know? Get it published for, you know, as of for instance. That's a good use of your ambition, and they can take things forward. And, you know, Chris, there there are people out there that are known for the fact that they have been published many, many times.
Ken Vogt:There are people that have made their whole career out of the fact that that they get published a lot. Some people have made their whole career out of the fact that they get on stage a lot. Some people have used it in in how they choose where to work and where what is what is the most visible project to work on? And I say where to work. It might be a particular lab, but it might be particular initiative.
Ken Vogt:And, again, you get yourself out in view, and it's being viewed by the people you wanna be viewed by. You know, do you do you wanna be famous with the public, or do you wanna be well known in your industry, or do you wanna be well known in at your institution? You know, the the there's different different lenses you could do this through. Then granted, you could do more than 1 if if you have that kind of ambition too, but you didn't then take a step back and say, which of these ambitions really helps me? You know, do you do you wanna be somebody that's gonna be be on PBS, or or does that not matter to you?
Ken Vogt:Do do you wanna be somebody that's that is a technical adviser on movies? Yeah. You know? And so sometimes people want those kind of more call it public facing roles. Other times, like, I don't care about what the man on the street thinks about me.
Ken Vogt:What I care about is what the people in my industry, the top of my industry think of me, and, that they think of me at all. That that may be the kind of thing that motivates you. And, again, I'm not I'm not saying any one is better or worse than another. It ambition is gonna be gonna be it's gonna be informed by what it is you really wanna make of yourself, whether that's professionally or or in your career. So it's up to you.
Ken Vogt:So the first first, you have to know yourself. Next, you have to know your environment. Right? And and, I'll add this too. You need to know the people that are in your orbit.
Ken Vogt:If there are other people that if there are people that already are achieving what it is you would like to achieve or are likely to achieve what you what you are to achieve, well, you wanna know what they're about. You wanna know what's working for them and what's not working for them, and you may wanna find ways you can collaborate with them or or or be noticed as they're being noticed. So, again, I'll take a breath here and ask you about the brakes and the gas. Nick?
Nick Oswald:I guess it's, I mean, one thing that struck sprung in my mind, there is that is it's in a way, it's all about your intention, isn't it?
Ken Vogt:Yeah.
Nick Oswald:It's, it's what what is your intention and and how does it, you know, how does it fit with what the what with what you actually want and with the what the people what suits the people around you. So that ties in with a lot of what we've been talking about in, in previous episodes, I guess.
Ken Vogt:Yeah. Well, you know, your ambition is is kinda like a a pet, but it's you know, some people keep a, you know, a pleasant golden retriever as a pet, and some people keep wolves. You know? Is what's your ambition like? Is your ambitious ambition hard to control?
Ken Vogt:Is and for some of us, I mean, I've set up that was me in my younger years. My ambition was just a burning fire, and it got me into trouble on more than one occasion. And and I deserve to be in trouble for it. It was it was not well managed, and and that matters. I I say this about myself now.
Ken Vogt:Now looking back, I don't really know if I could've done it any different. I was young. You know? I was full of adrenaline and caffeine and testosterone. You know?
Ken Vogt:What are you gonna do? Right? But at some point, yeah, you do have to decide, okay, what's too much, and where should I where should I dial this in? The other side of this is some folks need to turn up their ambition. You gotta stop telling yourself that you're small or that you're you don't matter.
Ken Vogt:You you have to start actually being ambitious effectively, and don't don't do what don't do what the naturally ambitious people do automatically because it will look fake. Do what feels good for you. And sometimes that's just taking one step further than you have before. It's it means raising your hand in that meeting and speaking. It means it means, you know, getting your name added to a paper, being part of it.
Ken Vogt:And it's not, you know, I I I recognize that getting your name on a paper is not necessarily an easy thing. And in fact, being the most junior person might mean you do the most work. But that's if that's the price you pay, do it. You know? Because everybody started off junior.
Ken Vogt:You know? So you don't start off senior. And I'll grant you that some people have some have some easier ends than others, but science, one thing that's good about it is it's a meritocracy, more than a lot of other places. So you you you probably can't get to the top of science without actually being good at it. You know, maybe maybe there are some some shortcuts for some folks, but they can get found out rather quickly too.
Ken Vogt:So, you know, you don't really want a shortcut. You want your ambitious ambition to be effective. So I will end with talking about how to get good results from your ambition. The first thing you've gotta do is know your end game. You don't wanna be ambitious just for ambition sake.
Ken Vogt:You wanna be ambitious to get something of value, to achieve something worthwhile. And, you know, this could be something it could be something that is quite self serving, but in a non harmful way. You know, advancing your career is not a bad thing. Advancing in your profession, not a bad thing. But, you know, advancing so as to help mankind, you're okay.
Ken Vogt:That's a great thing. Right? So but whatever it is, you've you've gotta know what it is for you. And don't don't tell yourself that I can only have ambitions about things that are are gonna gonna solve world peace. Right?
Ken Vogt:Don't set the bar impossibly high for yourself. There's plenty of worthwhile things that you know, I'm I'm gonna be ambitious about being better organized so that I can be home in time to have dinner with my kids. That is not a bad ambition. In fact, it's a rather it's a rather worthy ambition. Now granted some some ambitions would be more properly called lofty.
Ken Vogt:Well, if you're gonna have lofty ambitions, remember, you're gonna have to you're gonna have to work hard for that. So ambition itself won't be enough. There's the you gotta pay the rest of the cost too. The next thing about getting good results from your ambition is to periodically just check yourself. Is this working for me?
Ken Vogt:Is my approach right now getting the results I'm hoping for? Am I getting noticed like I was hoping for? Am I am I am I getting attention like I was hoping for? Am I am I getting opportunities like I was hoping for? Just make sure that your ambition is not just a waste of energy.
Ken Vogt:Make it count for something. And then finally, get feedback. You know, you can check yourself, but sometimes an outside view can be very informative. You know, ask somebody who's who is trustworthy what they think of how you're approaching things. What do they how how would they see you do it?
Ken Vogt:Would they have you do more of what you're doing? Would they have you do less? Would you have have you doing something different? The idea too is if you can find people that are trustworthy, but have a different a different perspective than you do can be extremely helpful because they can see things perhaps that are blind spots for you just as you might for them. And, you know, it could be a situation where being reciprocal about this kind of thing is the way to do it.
Ken Vogt:And, again, it's this is kind of a this is a collaboration type of effort. But, whether you're getting feedback from yourself, from others, make sure you get feedback. Alright? Anything else you would like to add there, Nick?
Nick Oswald:No. I think that was quite an interesting approach, actually. I I wasn't I I guess I would mostly or get interesting perspective. I think that mostly I think about that as not, gassing your ambition too much, but the idea of that you're, you know, hiding your light under a bushel as it were is Mhmm. Is equally equally important to to keep your eye on.
Nick Oswald:So it's all about balance as usual. Something in the middle.
Ken Vogt:Well, I mean, there are moments when you should just pull out all the stops, and then there are moments when you should shut up. You know? And and and that's where the real skill of this comes in. When we start to get good or recognize one of the opportunities and when is the time to be patient.
Nick Oswald:That's a good way to look at it. Okay. So at that point, I think we'll, thank you again, Ken, for being ambitious and, and delivering that to us. And, thanks to everyone for, for listening today or and on demand. If you enjoyed this, please, let your friends know about this podcast.
Nick Oswald:Subscribe to us in, in, either by signing up for Bite Size Bio. You can find that on the on the homepage, the link for that, or, signing up on your, subscribing rather on your favorite podcast platform. So until next time, good luck in your research, and goodbye from all of us at Bite Size Bio, including mister Miyagi.
Ken Vogt:Bye, everybody. Bye.
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