Objective Introspection to Strengthen Your Scientific Career
This is the Happy Scientist podcast. Each episode is designed to make you more focused, more productive, and more satisfied in the lab. You can find us online at bitesizebio.com/happyscientist. Your hosts are Kenneth Vogt, founder of the executive coaching firm, Vera Claritas, and doctor Nick Oswald, PhD, bioscientist, and founder of Bite Size Bio.
Nick Oswald:Hello. This is Nick Oswald welcoming you to this episode of the Happy Scientist podcast. If you want to become a happier, healthier, and more productive scientist, you are in the right place. With me as always is the Bite sized Bio team's mister Miyagi or maybe Dumbledore, mister Kenneth Vogt. In these sessions, we'll hear from Ken mostly on the principles that will help shape you for a happier and more successful life and career.
Nick Oswald:And along the way, I'll pitch in with points from my personal experience as a scientist and from working with Ken. If you have any questions along the way, put them into the questions box on the side of your screen, and I'll put them to Ken. So today, we are talking about it's a bit of a mouthful, this one actually. Objective introspection to strengthen your scientific career. Okay, Ken.
Nick Oswald:What is that all about?
Kenneth Vogt:There you go. Well, honestly, I'm gonna blame that title on my editor. He he smartened it up. But, like, you can think of it a far far more simply as look at yourself to see how you're impacting your own career. You could think about this.
Kenneth Vogt:You can strengthen your career by advancing it. You could also strengthen your career by protecting it. And the way we're gonna look at that today is through self examination, seeing where you really are. How are you really being? What are you getting done?
Kenneth Vogt:What aren't you getting done? How are you being viewed by others? So there's, there's quite a bit to talk about here, so let's jump right in. So, you know, the first question you might ask yourself is like, oh, wait a minute. This sounds like a lot of work.
Kenneth Vogt:Why should I bother to examine myself? I'm already knee deep in what I'm supposed to be doing and whether other people get it. It's not my problem. But, you know, at any given moment, you really only have right now. What what happened in the past is already done.
Kenneth Vogt:You're not changing that. The future isn't here yet. In this moment of now is when you have the opportunity. It's so it's where you are, when you are. And and you can also add the the knowledge of the past and the future into that.
Kenneth Vogt:That is, you know, where have you been? What what has been going on? What got you to here? That's worth being aware of. And to examine it from just your own personal perspective, how has my past happened?
Kenneth Vogt:How did it help me? How did it get me here? How did it create obstacles? What opportunities did it help? Which ones did it hurt?
Kenneth Vogt:You're you're that can only come from some kind of examination. Now you and then there's the future. It's like, well, where do I wanna end up? And this is gonna get me there. That you know, these are all all self inquiries.
Kenneth Vogt:But remember, even if you look at that, go, look, I don't want I don't wanna be playing that game of self inquiry. I just don't feel like it. Well, fine. Except others will be examining you. And, I mean, I we all know that for sure.
Kenneth Vogt:I mean, even when it comes down to just something simple like being assessed by your direct superior. You know, it's not done with any kind of, you know, they're not trying to hurt you. They're not, you know, they're not out to get you. They're not trying to they're not trying to compete with you. They're just it's just their job to assess the employees that work for them.
Kenneth Vogt:You're one of them. That's how it is. That's gonna be happening. And, of course, there are people with with not so great motives that are competing with you, and they're gonna be examining you too, and it's gonna happen. So you have to have a plan of of what you're gonna do.
Kenneth Vogt:And I'm not saying that it has to be all encompassing because, obviously, there's a lot of, technical knowledge that is necessary to do your job. And you gotta put your focus there. You can't only be focusing on the politics in the lab. Right? But, but you do need to see what's actually there.
Kenneth Vogt:So I will pause for a second and see if Nick has anything to add here.
Nick Oswald:I used to give a talk about the about alternative careers for scientists. And there's probably it's probably somewhere on my side. If not, I'll do it again. But one of the things that exactly addresses exactly this, one of the points in that talk. And and the the argument that I made, maybe it's less now because I started making this talk about ten years ago.
Nick Oswald:It's maybe less now. But there's this particular blueprint in science for how your career will will go. There's a classic path. And when you start off on your career, you tend to think you're gonna follow that path. And, and and the idea was to stop and do what you're doing is to reexamine.
Nick Oswald:Is this still what you want? Is this still what you want? Is it still working? Do it on a regular basis so that you don't do what many many people do, which is just they they kind of, at some point, realize this is not working, and I've gone quite far down here. And it's not what I wanted.
Nick Oswald:So from that one standpoint, that that that is that that's what pops out at me. But, so many different reasons to different ways to look at it as well, which I guess you're gonna, you're gonna dive into.
Kenneth Vogt:Yep. Yeah. And I mean, there are several people at Bite Size Bio and some that have worked for Bite Size Bio in the past. This is exactly what happened to them. They're very capable scientists, but they found the classical path wasn't totally ringing their chime.
Kenneth Vogt:You know, and these are not people who were failures in the lab. They're it's just they realized this isn't really what I wanna be. So, you know, you gotta be open to that. But if you don't do that self examination, you will never know. You'll just know that I'm not having a good time here.
Kenneth Vogt:I don't know why and but I get you don't have to just suck it up. There are options.
Nick Oswald:Yeah. I mean, I mean, the the one thing about the classical path now, which is why I said maybe it's slightly different, is that people know a lot more now that that it's more than likely you will not be able to follow that path in just a pure numbers game. So, you you know, there are less positions at the top than, the number of people entering the system. But as a but it's besides the point, you're the one data point in, you know, in the the whole sphere so you can do any you can do anything you want. You the the way to navigate it is not to be just pulled along by the tide.
Nick Oswald:The way the way to navigate it is to figure out what you want to do. And one of the key elements of that is is checking in with yourself in some of the ways you're gonna suggest to make sure that you're going in the direction that you want to, not that a direction not just a direction that seemed reasonable to you or to someone else the years ago.
Kenneth Vogt:Right. Right. Well, this segues into my next topic pretty well. If you're gonna do some kind of self examination, I mean, it's good to know the environment, like what you were talking about here a minute ago, Nick, that, you know, maybe you've played basketball on the school team since you were in middle school. You know?
Kenneth Vogt:But as you go up and up and up and it's high school and then it's college and then professionally, there aren't that many openings for professional basketball players. You know, if you want I mean, if you're somebody who's really that good, you can get to that spot. And but some of it is is more than just skill. It's about opportunity, you know, it's about luck. It's about connections.
Kenneth Vogt:And there are a lot of other things that could be done with the same set of skills. So I will start off by saying that when doing these kind of self examinations, be kind to yourself. It isn't about making a a just a brutal, bright like examination of my every failing and my every deficiency, and it's not like that. You you get to choose your battles, and you don't have to win every time. There there there there probably have been times when you've gone after something and didn't get it and somebody else did.
Kenneth Vogt:It's not the end of the world. Watch for more opportunities. Keep your eyes open and keep, you know, keep looking at, well, what is there something I should have built there? Is it that I needed to do better? Was I not did I not test as well?
Kenneth Vogt:Did I not demonstrate my skill as well? Or did I just plain not have the skill to demonstrate? And I need to bolster that. I mean, it's good to know these things and recognize them. And it's also good to know that I just I just wasn't in the political position to do this, so and and I couldn't have been.
Kenneth Vogt:So there's no reason to beat ourselves up about that stuff. Because, you know, self recrimination, it it serves no useful purpose. Sometimes people think, well, I'm being humble. That's not humility. That's self hatred.
Kenneth Vogt:It's not the same thing. We we just wanna see what is actually there. So you the bottom line here is you don't need to fear self examination. It's not gonna hurt you. It will only clarify some things.
Kenneth Vogt:And, yeah, you may see some things you didn't wish were there, but wishing them away isn't working, is it? So better to know. And because then the possibilities open up for, well, what could I do about this? You know? And maybe the answer to this not is there's nothing I can do about it.
Kenneth Vogt:But often, it's like you can't see the possibilities of how to improve your situation until you acknowledge your situation. So, again, I will pause for a minute there. Is there anything you wanna say about that, Nick?
Nick Oswald:I guess the the what what happens a lot in science that I've seen is the overachiever syndrome.
Kenneth Vogt:Mhmm.
Nick Oswald:And this is the, you know, that so people will kind of fall into that trap. I I would say just on the the side of being kind to yourself because,
Kenneth Vogt:you know, you you you to
Nick Oswald:get where you are at the moment, you had to you had to put in it, an an amount of work and focus that shows that it's you're doing your best, and that's all you can do at any moment. You can do your best, and then you can make the choices that are in front of you. But I but I I think the tendency, like, especially amongst the ones that are overachievers, is to to be hard on yourself, which is counterproductive. You know? You you might not fit the mold.
Nick Oswald:I didn't fit the mold as a scientist. I don't it turned out once I got into the lab that my skill set was not in line with what it took to be a scientist. It's just a different makeup, you know. And that wasn't my fault. Like, that's just the way that that's not something to be hard on myself about.
Nick Oswald:It's just the way that it was. And so now then I chose something else because I became aware of that. So kindness is to yourself is always the best option, I think.
Kenneth Vogt:So I wanna do a little to defend Nick here. Bite Size Bio started because he had scientific experience to share. He he had learned some techniques that were really useful for other people. So the original content on Bite Size Bio was all Nick. So it's not like, okay, he failed in science, not even close.
Kenneth Vogt:But at the end of the day, recognition of it's more than just this knowledge. There's there's an outlook. There's this there's there's skills, but there's also a propensity toward certain behaviors and certain environments. And and he saw himself, and he knew and he knew that he wanted to make a shift to to make that work the best. So now I I I like what you're talking about, Nick, about the the achievers that are among scientists.
Kenneth Vogt:So let's shift to that. How about you folks? When is it time to be brutally honest? You know, you wanna see yourself. You you wanna avoid the blind spots.
Kenneth Vogt:And it's the stuff you don't know you don't know is what gets you in the end. That's that's the bugaboo. And we can you know, you can put on your rose colored glasses and only see your strong points and only see the, you know, the hard work you've already done and and what, you know, the level you've already risen to, but it's it's a trap. Self deception can get you. I don't care how smart you are, how experienced you are, how imaginative you are.
Kenneth Vogt:You wanna see what is actually there. And so in in those moments of self examination, it's not so much to make an examination of, let me look at all the all the stuff that shows how great I am. I I wanna I wanna be able to pat myself on the back. I wanna be able to hide behind the things I'm good at, and I want to hide behind the recognition I've gotten from others for that. But hiding isn't really gonna get you what you want.
Kenneth Vogt:It it won't protect you even where you are. So seeing what actually is and realizing this is a flaw, this is a weakness, this is a gap. Again, once you acknowledge those things, well, now you can start to see solutions to that. Now you can get creative about, well, what do I wanna do about that? How do I wanna approach it?
Kenneth Vogt:And for some people, it's literally more education. Some people, it's I wanna go back and get a postdoc as opposed to to, you know, work for a commercial lab at this time. You know? There's it will it will make you recognize that maybe there is a easier road for me here or or just a smoother road for my circumstances at this time. And, you know, keep in mind too, when you make choices these days, it's not gonna be the thing you're gonna do for the rest of your career and retire with the gold watch.
Kenneth Vogt:That those days are long gone. They were they were gone from my grandfather, you know, and I'm not young. So for for most of you who are probably hearing this this, you can't think like that. It's just not how the how the world will be operating.
Nick Oswald:On the other hand, you can be you can be brutally honest and be kind to yourself. Yeah. Those are not mutually exclusive.
Kenneth Vogt:Yeah. Exact yeah. That's that's a really good point. This is this isn't a matter of some people should be kind and some people should be self brutal. Sure.
Kenneth Vogt:We all need both when we have our moments.
Nick Oswald:I realized that I was nowhere near green fingered enough to be a scientist. Right? Or for it to be comfortable for me to be a scientist. But that that was that was being brutally honest with myself, but I didn't beat myself up about it. I I just thought, okay.
Nick Oswald:So what are my strengths, and what way do I want to go?
Kenneth Vogt:So is being green fingered what a biologist would call, what a gardener would call it having a green thumb?
Nick Oswald:Exactly the same thing. Well, we we have the same green fingered in in The UK, but it's it's the same that it's it's the gardening analogy. It takes a little bit of skill, that is intangible skill to to be a sinus. And, and I certainly didn't have that. So, yeah, that that was that was the brutal brutal truth for me.
Nick Oswald:So, yeah. But that that I didn't beat myself up about it. That's the way it was. And then on on the go. It was useful information for choosing what to do next.
Kenneth Vogt:Right. Right.
Nick Oswald:It did take me ten years to figure it out, by
Kenneth Vogt:the way. I didn't mean to get
Nick Oswald:Well,
Kenneth Vogt:you know, that that's an interesting thing to say. It wasn't ten years of failure either.
Nick Oswald:No, no. It was ten years
Kenneth Vogt:of doing the job. Yeah.
Nick Oswald:It was ten years of trying to overcome that hurdle and then realizing, oh, wait a minute.
Kenneth Vogt:Well, you know, this is an interesting thing about the scientific endeavor. Yeah. Of course, there's a lot of math and statistics and data to analyze. That that's all true, and that's all very logic based and can can be very black and white. But the fact is you're dealing with living things, and there is there is that that dark area.
Kenneth Vogt:Now I say dark, not like darkly evil, but dark like unseen that has to do with life and how it progresses. And and I don't I don't mean human life. I mean basic life. There there's only so much we actually understand about that. And and we're seeing a a facsimile of reality, And you're operating on that fix facsimile.
Kenneth Vogt:And, of course, you wanna get good at it. They're at least as good as one can be or as good as is typical. But but we're you're still dealing with a lot of mystery. You know, power to you for that. And it requires a lot of creativity and power to you for that.
Kenneth Vogt:You ought to do it. And you have to you have to engage yourself on that to get it done. So to move on to the next thought on that. So there's self examination versus outside observation. Now there are other people observing you also, and they might be your superiors.
Kenneth Vogt:They might be people you, you know, work with side by side. They might be people that see you as a competitor. They might be people that are looking to recruit you to their lab. There's a lot of reasons why there's gonna be outside observation. So if you don't do the self examination, that outside observation, it's almost like you have no, there's you have you have you have no foil to compare it to.
Kenneth Vogt:You don't you won't know if that outside observation has any validity or not because you wouldn't you've got nothing to compare it to. On the other hand, some outside observation could be wrong. Of course, some self examination could be wrong. So, again, we're we gotta take this all in as as useful data. Even if it's wrong, it can be useful data.
Kenneth Vogt:So the more self aware you are, the self self awareness will arise out of your ability to know yourself from the inside out, and you will know things about you that no one else knows. Now in some cases, maybe they could come to know some of it, but you still have, you know, that, you know, the secret heart of who you are. Right? And if you know that, you you have you have a great advantage. Now awareness is a little different than observation.
Kenneth Vogt:Observation is the skill to gain awareness. Right? You you can't be aware of something until you've seen it. And some people are very good at at isolating their own self awareness. Some people are very good at the skill of self observation.
Kenneth Vogt:You know, note your what you're good at, note what you could be better at, but use them both sides of that to to help you. And, you know, at any given moment, it's funny, you can be engaged in an activity, and then you feel like something is not quite right. Well, how do you do that? Some people, they have thoughts. It's their thoughts to tell them something is off.
Kenneth Vogt:You know, it it might be very logical. Some people have a feeling that something isn't right. It can be very illogical in some cases. Some people have a sensation in their body. This is giving me a headache.
Kenneth Vogt:It's bothering my stomach. You know, that's one of the signals you get that tells you, look at what's going on here. And, yeah, you wanna examine it for the sake of protecting your literal self, maybe even protecting your body. You know? But, you wanna see it you you wanna see it as in as big a picture as you can because you never know where it's gonna touch.
Kenneth Vogt:And it may be something that doesn't bother you physically at all, but it doesn't feel right or it doesn't bother you. It doesn't make you feel one way or another, but it's you're having, you know, cognitive dissonance because it's not working for you mentally. So, yeah, you you wanna develop your skill there as far as you possibly can go, but then take into consideration outside observation. What do others see? What are they observing?
Kenneth Vogt:How do they feel about it? How do they think about it? Do they have experience that that could be a benefit to you? That outside observation can really enrich your self examination. And you it will help you see yourself more clearly, more accurately.
Kenneth Vogt:You know, you can align yourself with all available knowledge, all available perception. And and why not? What I mean, you're there's nothing to lose there. We I guess what I'm I'm saying here is don't fear outside observers.
Nick Oswald:Yeah. I I yeah. I would say you you get a lot of outside observation in science, obviously, because there's peer review. There's layers of bosses. There's grant review the grants, you know, application reviewers and and, you know, all sorts of people.
Nick Oswald:Those are all looking at from looking at at you from their own perspective. They've got certain criteria and certain biases and certain, you know, maybe agendas, maybe. Hopefully not, but they do exist. And Of course. And so you're the only one who can tell, who can steer for yourself and take what you know, taking an account the feedback you're getting.
Nick Oswald:You know? So, but it's dangerous to I mean, there are a lot of characters in science that who are great at science but are not great at management in my experience anyway. It'd be dangerous to take on literally take on their viewpoint, you know, that subset of people as an example. It'd be dangerous to take on their viewpoint as a literal feedback on how good you are or what your what your, your promise was as a scientist or what your direction should be. Only you know that.
Nick Oswald:And, you know, they they have that bias or they have a dis not dysfunction. That's too strong a word. They, you know, they maybe put it a certain way. Let's put it
Kenneth Vogt:that
Nick Oswald:way. Take the feedback from those, but then decide for yourself and take all of that feedback with a bit of a pinch of salt. Mindset.
Kenneth Vogt:Right. Right. And, you know, you can take feedback because you like that feedback and not take feedback because you don't like it. You know? Maybe you've got maybe you've got, undergrads that are working in the lab with you, and they think you're some kind of god.
Kenneth Vogt:Either you're you're amazing. Well, yeah, you like to hear how smart you are and how how experienced you are and all that. That's great. The people that you, you know, that are your peers, you work with side by side. Yeah.
Kenneth Vogt:They think you're pretty good. Do you think you're competent? You can get the job done. And maybe you work for a jerk, and he thinks you're a moron. You know?
Kenneth Vogt:Well, all of those are data points, and you have to you have to not just take the data point in, but you have to assess its relative value. Some people's opinions on certain things are highly valuable and others aren't. You know, you might wanna get good investment advice, but, you know, your uncle Larry may not be the guy to get it from. On the other hand, somebody else that just wants to sell you something, they might not be a good guy to get it from. But other people have experience, and they see they see things accurately, and they have a track record.
Kenneth Vogt:And then then that advice you may wanna take. You know, it applies just as well to anything going on in your lab.
Nick Oswald:It goes back to the be brutally honest and be kind thing, though, as well.
Kenneth Vogt:Yes. You
Nick Oswald:know? It's, be brutally open to, you know, to take the stuff on even if you don't like it. Take criticism if you don't like it, but then evaluate it brutally, honestly. Is it honestly, does this chime with my experience of myself or is this person off, you know, got a different agenda or a different viewpoint?
Kenneth Vogt:Mhmm.
Nick Oswald:And then regardless of what the, you know, what you come up with, be kind to yourself. Because, again, you're doing your best, and that's all you can do. You know? You can all you can do is do your best and steer.
Kenneth Vogt:So Right. Yeah. And it's like, sometimes, we we get input and we don't like it. Well, maybe just we didn't like how it was delivered. But if it's accurate, we wanna receive that.
Kenneth Vogt:We wanna get the benefit from it and and vice versa. Just because something was presented sweetly doesn't mean it's true. So Yeah. You know, we we wanna we wanna see as clearly as we possibly can. So if we if we think about about progress, it's about self expansion.
Kenneth Vogt:Right? You you want to have you want to have more going for you at any given moment. I think sometimes we see life as a a series of expansions and contractions, and we get focused on the contraction. Sometimes the contraction is just solidification. It's not it's actually still expansive.
Kenneth Vogt:And sometimes, it stops us from expanding into something that isn't useful for us. So and you have to decide how do you wanna approach this. You know, in your sign your your particular scientific job, you may look at it. I think what I wanna do is I wanna go deep on something specific. I wanna really be an expert here.
Kenneth Vogt:In fact, I wanna break new ground here, And that can put you on the map. And if that suits your personality and suits your opportunities and gives you the the right possibilities, why not? Now other people are more comfortable going broad. That is they wanna be a polymath. They wanna know about a lot of stuff, you know, versus just being a jack of all trades where they're well, like, I I can comfortably do this stuff, but a polymath is somebody who wants to be really good at everything they do.
Kenneth Vogt:Now that is not the path for everybody, but it is the path for some of you. And it's not about it's not about your ambition so much as your ability, your capability. Some people can do this, and I'm sure you know people like that. You maybe work with people like that or work for people like that. And it's it's fabulous to watch.
Kenneth Vogt:And if if you can move me on just it being an aspiration for you and, like, no. I think I can be that. I can do that. Well, do that if you choose that. People that have that kind of skill are also capable of going deep, so it's not like you have to give up on that.
Kenneth Vogt:But it's it's a good way to look at things. Look at it vertically. Look at it horizontally. Figure out what what happens. A third approach you can take is just go random.
Kenneth Vogt:And for people that are highly creative, this may really speak to you. And you can you can see new things that you've never seen before by doing that. Look for connections. Look for for new possibilities and have that be that that be your guiding light. And, again, there are some of you that that will really speak to you, and other people will hear that and go, that sounds like chaos.
Kenneth Vogt:I'd I hate chaos. I hate all this all this unknown stuff all the time. I have to have some solid footing under me. Well, if that doesn't work for you, then don't do that. But whatever ever path you choose, whatever ones you've tried out tried out, don't give in to disappointment.
Kenneth Vogt:If you decided to go broad and then you realize that I'm biting off more than I can chew here, don't beat yourself up about it. You know, you you still have you can still approach things in another way and still safeguard your future, still make yourself a valuable team member that that folks wanna have around. You can you know, disappointment has to be viewed has to be viewed rationally. I mean, if something doesn't go the way you wish, it's it's appropriate to be disappointed. But are you gonna consume yourself with that?
Kenneth Vogt:And people's I mean, frankly, they can send themselves into a downward spiral of of mental illness. Yeah. And I'm not not in any way saying that that isn't a harsh thing and isn't hard to overcome. But for some folks, they they could have stopped it sooner. Or at any given moment, they could say, I'm still I still have the power to stop giving into this.
Kenneth Vogt:I'm not gonna do this anymore. So, you know, assess yourself properly that way. It's not to say you can't seek help if you need it. But in some cases, we realize, I don't need a drug. What I need is to stop being an idiot.
Kenneth Vogt:You know? And again, this is self assessment. I'm not talking about judging other people. And frankly, I don't even want you to judge yourself. But you do know in any moment, like, you know, this is something I'm indulging in, and and I have the power to not indulge in it.
Kenneth Vogt:So, you know, get cut yourself a little slack and be okay with it that the path I've I've chosen up till now isn't perfect. I'm gonna need to make some adjustments. So you can make major adjustments. Then go ahead. You still can.
Kenneth Vogt:Yeah. You still have that possibility. You can have all
Nick Oswald:All you can
Kenneth Vogt:take a breath.
Nick Oswald:Yeah. All you can do that's the same. All you can do is be kind to yourself and steer. Be honest and steer. And and, yeah, I think I I think in a in a I think in a profe any profession, actually, it's really easy to kinda pigeonhole yourself and think that that my peers are do are all heading in this direction, and so I am as well.
Nick Oswald:And it's much more granular than that. There are so many different things you can do, different directions you can go in from where you are now that, that again, if you if you can just do if you can set your if you can be honest with yourself about what you want and where you are, then then you'll just you it allows you to make the right choices. But, you know, this is this is one lens to look at it. You've just given your
Kenneth Vogt:Right. And, you know, you don't wanna be in a position where you're looking back. Holy cow. It's been ten years. It's been twenty years.
Kenneth Vogt:It's been thirty years. Why did I stay on this path? You know, whatever it is. I mean, it's it's been three months. Why am I still on this path?
Kenneth Vogt:You don't wanna you don't want to be suffering regret that you had a choice to avoid. Now regret is gonna happen in life. Don't, you know, don't try to avoid regret. But when you when you notice it, notice it because you, you know, you you will have the opportunity to pivot. So let me give you a framework in within which pivot happens.
Kenneth Vogt:Sometimes you can plan your growth, But other times, it's, you know, it's an opportunity that you didn't plan on, didn't even expect, but there it is. So you may have to exploit the chances that come to you when they come to you. They're they're not always perfectly timed. Maybe you wish you had more time to prepare. Maybe you wish they'd come sooner.
Kenneth Vogt:But it's you know, you we wanna have our eyes open for that thing. Thing. It doesn't mean that you should jettison your plan just because the new opportunity shows up because new opportunities often show up. But we don't wanna have a, you know, the the grass is greener on the other side kind of outlook about things. Yeah.
Kenneth Vogt:Of course. There are some known problems with the path you're currently on, and maybe a new thing wouldn't have that. But then again, everything has everything has its downside, and sometimes you won't know until you're in it. So it's, you you don't wanna turn away opportunity. On the other hand, having a defined plan and you're working the plan, you've been succeeding at it, is very valuable.
Kenneth Vogt:Don't discount that. Don't don't don't beat yourself up about the fact that, oh, I haven't been a, you know, hyper risk taker, and maybe I haven't been as imaginative as some other people. Well, yeah, there's there's downsides to that though too. So it's you have to assess the risk versus reward.
Nick Oswald:Yeah. That can go either either way. I mean, for my career, my path has been quite risky. And sometimes I'll go I I then I go to maybe I should have just taken it more simply and gave myself less stress.
Kenneth Vogt:Mhmm.
Nick Oswald:But it's it's you'll always the grass is always greener on the other side. Right.
Kenneth Vogt:Well, and our our motivation for sticking with a plan, could come from a really good place. You know? It it may be kind of a moral principle you're following. Like, I'm not gonna jettison something that's working because I wanna take care of my family, and I I don't wanna it might be fun for me, but what what am I gonna do to my spouse, my children, by going down that road? And even if nothing goes wrong, what stress do I introduce by by interjecting unknowns?
Kenneth Vogt:I was I was thinking about this specifically from the standpoint of biology. So how does how does life work? I mean, the how do living things operate? They need to be able to spread quickly in previously unexploited habitats. And when that happens, you don't know what the outcome will be.
Kenneth Vogt:Now granted, some things don't do that. There there's some biological entities that need a very specific, environment or that's it. They're done. But the stuff that can spread quickly does. And, of course, that's how we get infections.
Kenneth Vogt:You know? That's how we have cancer. You know? There's a I mean, there's a lot of downside to that stuff. On the other hand, if there's a new opportunity to to to exploit a new environment, and I when I say exploit, I mean that in the clinical sense, not in the moral sense, you know, to make to make use of what's available, we don't wanna miss out on that.
Kenneth Vogt:But by the same token, we need to acknowledge that if it's a new environment, there there are gonna be new problems, there are gonna be new risks, and and we wanna we wanna be eyes open about that. Some people will be very uncomfortable with an an opportunistic environment. Other people will be are very uncomfortable with a planned environment that are that's that's very restricted, and it's got all these boundaries around it. You know? But you got you gotta know yourself and know your your tolerance level.
Kenneth Vogt:And and, too, even if you think you can tolerate a lot of risk, there's there's a level of risk that's just just not conducive of life. So we don't we don't wanna we don't wanna push beyond the boundaries. You know, there there's a reason why I haven't gone to Mars. You know? And and this book's too hard.
Kenneth Vogt:Now there's some folks that'd be like, man, I would love to be there. I would love to do that. Great. You know? If you're the if you can tolerate that and you can make it work, great.
Kenneth Vogt:On the other hand, if, you know, you're just gonna be in a box, it that if I mean, if you can survive in a box, it can happen, you know? But some people, I mean, they they will not flourish there, and you need to know yourself.
Nick Oswald:Yeah. I don't have anything to add to that. That was well clear. I would like to go to Mars. Well, no.
Nick Oswald:I don't know.
Kenneth Vogt:I I
Nick Oswald:I like the idea, but but, yes, the quiet commitment needs.
Kenneth Vogt:Yeah. For sure. Well, I don't have anything to add to it either. That was, that was the the end of my presentation. So thank you, everybody, for listening.
Nick Oswald:I think this is a really important topic for all professions, but especially well, not especially. From personal experience, I know that it's important in science because it's there are so many illusions of of, real tracks, you know, I mean, career tracks. And, well, they're not illusions that do exist, but it's so easy to get hypnotized into just following that and not evaluating yourself. There's also a lot of, there's also a lot of inputs in terms of feedback and criticism and review and Mhmm. Strange management setups and all sorts of stuff that that can that can demoralize you if you are and and and I think that the demoralization compounds if you are not being introspective because you get pulled along by those tracks and you get pulled along by the the criticism.
Nick Oswald:Yep. And, and so that's the this is a real core skill for, for sinuses. Keep evaluating yourself. What are you good at? How is it going?
Nick Oswald:What are you bad at? Is it a fit? If it isn't a fit, what's a better direction? But, I mean, I'm sure we've done episodes on perseverance as well. That's also a thing.
Nick Oswald:And it's not about just going, oh, this is getting difficult. Let's stop. But it's honestly steering your way in a direction that that that fits for you. So I think this is a great topic, Ken. Thanks for that.
Kenneth Vogt:Yeah. Alright. Great. Thank you.
Nick Oswald:Okay. And thanks everyone for joining us. We will be back in, in a month for another episode. And you can look on your look on BiteSizeBio.com in the podcast section to find, The Happy Scientist on whatever podcast cast platform you use. And there, you can access all of the the, there I don't know how many episodes we have now.
Nick Oswald:It's a lot of episodes on all sorts of really great and deep topics, that that can help you. And if you find this useful, if you find this useful today, please share it with a colleague and, and let them get the benefit as well. Share the webinar or share the link to the podcast page on BiteSize Bio, that would be greatly appreciated. So thanks to all of you for joining us, and good luck in your research. We'll see you next time.
Kenneth Vogt:Alright. Thank you all.
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