Why Be a Mentor to Other Scientists?
This is the Happy Scientist podcast. Each episode is designed to make you more focused, more productive, and more satisfied in the lab. You can find us online at bitesizebio.com/happyscientist. Your hosts are Kenneth Vogt, founder of the executive coaching firm, Vera Claritas, and doctor Nick Oswald, PhD, bioscientist, and founder of Bite Size
VX:Bio.
Skye Marshall:Hello. This is Sky Marshall, a content creator at BiteSize Bio, welcoming you to this BiteSize Bio webinar, which today is a live episode of the Happy Scientist podcast. If you want to become a happier, healthier, and more productive scientist, you're in the right place. With me is Bite Size Bio's vister Kenneth Vogt. In these sessions we hear from Ken mostly on principles that will help shape you for a happier and more successful career and along the way I am going to try and pitch in with points from my personal experience as a scientist.
Skye Marshall:If you have any questions along the way, put them into the questions box on the side of your screen, and I'll put them to Ken. So today, we will be discussing why be a mentor to other scientists. So over to you, Ken.
Ken Vogt:Alright. Hey, Skye. It's, good to have you on the Happy Scientist. You know, folks, normally, my cohost is doctor Nick Oswald, as you know. Occasionally, it has been doctor Tom Warwick, but today, it's doctor Sky Marshall.
Ken Vogt:So lucky me, I'm surrounded by PhDs. So
Skye Marshall:Lucky me, I get to debut on the podcast while Nick
Ken Vogt:is away. Well, there we go. So this is an important question. Why be a mentor to other scientists? You know, why should you bother?
Ken Vogt:Don't you have enough going on? Haven't you got enough on your plate to not have to go through this extra effort? Well, I I will happily acknowledge that, of course, you have a lot on your plate. But the science is is a big area, and it's a very collaborative area, and it needs people who are working together. And, hopefully, you're gonna be one of those people.
Ken Vogt:So I will start off with talking about the environment that that you find yourself in. And and it may feel like sometimes you look around and go, who are these little snot nose kids in my lab? You know? But, you know, remember, yeah, they they may be young or younger than you, yet they're highly educated. Many cases are also PhDs or at least, you know, they're they're post you know, they're or they're postdocs or they're working in their PhDs or or at whatever level they're at.
Ken Vogt:But if they're in a lab doing this kind of work, chances are they're pretty smart people. Now are they the are they as brilliant as you? Well, maybe maybe some of them aren't, but the the fact is the bar is still pretty high. And and yet you gotta remember that there's a bunch of things that you know now that are second nature. You don't think about it very much.
Ken Vogt:But you didn't you didn't start off knowing that stuff. You weren't born knowing these things. You may have had a natural affinity for the kind of science that you prefer or that you pursue, but that affinity is not the same as experience. Everybody starts off that way. So rather than lamenting the fact that other people are less experienced than you, don't have the the insights that you have worked hard to cultivate already, isn't it better just to look at what is the environment I'm actually in?
Ken Vogt:What is it? What is really going on here? And what do the people in my lab need to know? Now it may be that you're looking at this from the standpoint of just, you know, I'm I'm just one of of several or even many scientists working in this lab on various things. You may feel like, well, I'm not I'm not the PI.
Ken Vogt:It's not my job. I'm why why I'm why do I have to worry about this? Set those why questions away for for now. But right now, let's just see how it actually is. Do people know what they need to know?
Ken Vogt:Do they know where to go when they don't know? And can you take some at least some responsibility for helping people get up to speed even if even if it's not your primary responsibility, can you be somebody that says, well, when you encounter this, hey. Check here. The here's we've got a protocol for that. You can you can find that here, or here's here's where to find the right equipment to do the things that that you're tasked to do.
Ken Vogt:I mean, just just being a good bro as it were. You know, just being being someone who's helpful to others is quite useful, and and it will make your your environment easier. If you're surrounded by frustrated and and, you know, people are not successfully completing their tasks, it's a bad environment for you. So it's it's absolutely in your personal interest to have everybody as up to speed as they can be. Now maybe you can't take them all the way through what they need to do.
Ken Vogt:Some of that may be on them. They need to step up, and they need to learn and that kind of thing. But if you can do some part in that, you make your life easier too. On top of that, you are making their lives easier, and that may well bring you benefits in the future. If you have a reputation of being somebody that that can be counted on to help, who who's got a collaborative nature to them, you you don't know how that's gonna play out in the future.
Ken Vogt:And we don't know where these people are gonna or they're gonna go in their careers either. You you may end up working for one of these people in the future, and all that may sound a little disconcerting, but it's not necessarily so bad. If if you find a you know, somebody who's young and new in this space, and they're really excelling, and they're showing themselves to be creative and inventive and and smart and open to learning, those are good people to work with. They're good people to work for. So, you know, even if you don't have the aspiration of being in charge of all these people for the rest of their careers, Understand that it's a, yeah, it's a river we're all jumping in.
Ken Vogt:You just never know which molecule water molecules are gonna end up where. So take take that environment into account. So is that did I did I hear something you wanted to interject there, Skye, or am I just hearing things? Oh, I
Skye Marshall:was just laughing that it was a river we're all jumping in.
Ken Vogt:Yes. So I presume you have worked in the lab in the past.
Skye Marshall:I have. I've worked in several labs. I've had a bit of a funny squiggly, academic career where I did 2 masters actually, and then a PhD that was between a few labs. So one aspect of that is I feel like I never really had a mentor so to speak because I was always, you know, leaving the lab to go to another lab but I've definitely had lots of people that helped me along the way and then yeah, and the other way I was thinking, have I mentored anyone myself? But not in a practical, long term sense, but hopefully I can be helpful.
Skye Marshall:I love that you started with acknowledging how busy people already are because my experience has just been people rushing around. You can never catch people. You yourself are really busy. It can be quite a stressful atmosphere. But, yeah, like you said, it's it's better to be collaborative because it then it just makes your environment better.
Skye Marshall:So if you are stressed, I mean, hope hopefully would help you make your own environment better and would address that fact,
Ken Vogt:that Right.
Skye Marshall:Negative part of your experience.
Ken Vogt:And you and if you're having that experience, chances are the people around you are too. Yeah. And everybody's not on their own yeah. They're on their own trajectory. Maybe they're having the exact kind of experience you are.
Ken Vogt:Maybe they've had it in the past. Maybe they haven't had it yet, but they're gonna. Yeah. So, yeah, the science is especially requires collaboration. It's it's there aren't really many Nikola Tesla's anymore who just work by themselves.
Ken Vogt:But, you know, I mean, Tesla's an interesting example of someone who came up with all this brilliant stuff, and yet we're still trying to unpack it in many cases because he he didn't collaborate very well with others. And and it may well be that some of the things he learned will be lost forever, so or won't be found again, at least not with his help. So, yeah, we don't wanna be that. So I wanna I wanna talk about the notion of lifelong learning because, you know, there are people that are super green, don't know anything. Then there are people that well, they they've got deep expertise in a narrow area, and we we all have these these silos of of, information that that we have access to.
Ken Vogt:Some of us are experts on this particular area or that particular area, and maybe maybe it's not, not even an area that we would call being an expert. Maybe it's more narrow than that. But still, if you're really good at something, if you really know how this particular microscope works, you can be very, very helpful to other people. If you learn some tricks and, to make things operate more smoothly or more quickly. I mean, that's what what bite size bio is all about, is to help people with techniques.
Ken Vogt:Right? But, you you know, you just never know what you know that somebody else doesn't know. So pardon me. At any given moment, somebody is as far along in their learning as they are. And rather than lamenting that, oh, this person is so green or they're so they're such a novice, like, well, that's where they are.
Ken Vogt:So you start from there. How can you help somebody from the position they're in? We don't we don't necessarily teach from our own level. We we teach people at their level. You know, my my kindergarten teacher was a lovely lady, and and thank goodness she didn't teach at the university level that she was capable of teaching at when I was in kindergarten.
Ken Vogt:I I needed the kindergarten level, and and we all have that, and we're all in in that in that situation even now. I don't care how much of an expert you are. There are still things that you don't know, and it's silly not to acknowledge that. And and when we look at other people, it's silly for us to be judgmental about it in them. Like, well, if they don't know something, they don't know it.
Ken Vogt:So, I mean, if you think back, even though what you were saying a moment ago, Skye, maybe you never had anybody who who deserve the title of mentor in your personal case, but doesn't mean you didn't learn from other people. There were other colleagues who were trained and skilled in certain things, and I'm sure they shared those things with you, and and you picked up on it. And if you, you know, if as a mentee, if you bother to listen to people, if you bother to be appreciative when they help you, you'll find you'll get more and more help that way.
Skye Marshall:Mhmm.
Ken Vogt:So, I mean, there's there's two sides to this, being a mentor and being a mentee.
Skye Marshall:Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I I definitely feel like I've managed to glean a lot of tips from a lot of people. I was I'm thinking I'm that sort of personality that I love it when someone helps me out and tells me their experience of something that even if I think I know it, I think I've got that face where I just listen and I'm interested in what they've got to say.
Skye Marshall:So, yeah, a lot of people have come up and helped me.
Ken Vogt:Sure. And, you know, if you're if you are also trying to help others, you're gonna find some people are like that. They're super appreciative. There are other people that are gonna be a little annoyed, but maybe they're not annoyed at you. They're just annoyed at their own present ignorance.
Ken Vogt:They they wish they knew. And so, yeah, maybe they act a little abrasive when you try and help them out. Try and give people a little room, a little space to absorb what you're trying to communicate to them, and learn what other people's styles are. Some people want the details. Some people just want, you know, give me the big picture.
Ken Vogt:Try and try and give to them what they need as as they prefer to receive it. Now that doesn't mean that some people shouldn't do a better job on how they receive information, but, again, the fact is they are the way they are as of today right now, and this is the environment you have to deal with. And if you start thinking about this, I'm helping this person as an investment. That is if they get better at this, it makes things operate more smoothly in the lab. It makes the entire operation work better.
Ken Vogt:It helps with your your collective goals, and it may well help you in the future. You know, if even if somebody is working on something and the only crossover you've got is you bump into them when you both wanna use the same piece of equipment, if they can use it more quickly and efficiently, that is good for you. Even if it's a project you're not on, because it it gets them out of your way later. Right? So it it's worth doing that.
Ken Vogt:This also, opens up the notion that developing your own communication skills is really key. If the sooner they understand what you're trying to communicate, the better off you are. And as you become a better communicator, that is a life skill. It benefits you all across your career, all across your life. So if if you're thinking that, I just I don't wanna have to work at it that hard, yeah, you do.
Ken Vogt:You really do. It's it's such a worthwhile use of your time. And when you get better at it, you get better at it. And especially folks that feel like I'm not a great communicator. I don't really like dealing with people that much.
Ken Vogt:Yeah. Because you're not experienced enough at it. Get more experienced at it, and it gets easier. And one day, you may find yourself saying, you know, I used to always say I didn't like people, and I was an introvert. And then you realize, you know what?
Ken Vogt:That not so much. I'm more comfortable with people now. I and I'm and I'm happier sharing with them. It it again, just it makes everything operate more smoothly.
Skye Marshall:I love that. That was so interesting that I think communication skills is something you're going to have to learn.
Ken Vogt:Yeah.
Skye Marshall:I was thinking as you were talking about, like, approaching people at their level, teaching them from the way with the way they think, I was thinking, oh see that's a good skill where a lot of people in academia, they might want to go into lecturing and they might want to add that to their cover letter or their CV that they've consciously tried to to communicate in these different types of way.
Ken Vogt:Yeah. And some writing or, I mean, some communication may be writing. Maybe you're putting down protocols or, you know, reporting things. It's not just talking, right? Yeah.
Skye Marshall:Yeah. So true. Other than the communication skills, but that applies to any any other career or life.
Ken Vogt:Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And and again, you don't know where you're gonna end up in your career. I mean, there was a there was a time back in the day you you started working for the company when you get out of high school and then you retired with the gold watch in 25, 35, 40 years.
Ken Vogt:Those days are over. Shoot. They're over for my grandparents. You know? That's how long ago it's been, and I'm older than most people on who are listening to this right now.
Ken Vogt:So we gotta stop thinking this way that you don't know what you're gonna end up doing in the future. And you you need general skills, not just your your specialized skills.
Skye Marshall:Mhmm. And to be aware that that's what you are developing.
Ken Vogt:Right. Yeah. Do it mindfully. Don't don't just accidentally become a better communicator. Do it on purpose.
Ken Vogt:And, you know, because you're gonna get there faster if you do it on purpose.
Skye Marshall:Oh, so true.
Ken Vogt:So I I I wanted to have this slide especially because we can listen to this all and go, okay. This is how to do it, but why do it? I don't want to. I don't wanna have to be somebody's mentor. You You know, I don't wanna have to do all this stuff.
Ken Vogt:Well, this is about leadership, and leadership is another skill that you wanna develop for the sake of your own career. And it's it's like a muscle. It has to be worked hard. And, yeah, it can it can be it can be painful when you're doing it. You can be sore afterward, but that's how it is.
Ken Vogt:And there's no sense denying that. Now if you just wanna be a worker bee that keeps your head down and just does the same road tasks over and over again, you know, there are places for folks that that's how they wanna do this. But at some point, you might wanna do something more interesting. At some point, you want might wanna make more money. At some point, you might wanna exercise your brain more.
Ken Vogt:So don't cut yourself off from those possibilities. At the end of the day, if if you wanna be just doing the same heads down work and you're comfortable with that, that's fine. But test it out. Make sure that there isn't something else that you might not wanna do. So, another thing to think about is is how you go about this.
Ken Vogt:How do I mentor people? Well, some people need hands on help, and, you know, maybe they're more kinesthetic in their in their learning style, and they need help in that way. Other people need to hear it. Other need to peep need to read it. Other people need to do it with other people.
Ken Vogt:That everybody's got their own style, And, you know, you could you can have your preferences too. Like, I prefer to write things down, for instance, or I prefer to to make short videos for the something. Alright? You know? Or I prefer to just talk to somebody.
Ken Vogt:Your preferences are fine, but make sure you match up with what their preferences are too. And if you can have a, a bigger toolbox, it's it's only good for you. And, again, it it it aids the rest of your career, the rest of your life to have more possibilities of how you can how you can help someone. Another thing that comes up in this, and you mentioned earlier, Skye, is that I'm sure you are busy. And you may be thinking, I okay.
Ken Vogt:I I get it. I see the value, but when am I supposed to do this? How do I how do I have the time? It's like, well, you have the time by making the time. You have to take that time to to help people when they need it.
Ken Vogt:Because often, they're needing help not at a convenient time for you. Right? But that's when they need it. Now it doesn't mean you drop everything for everybody and you let be a doormat and be walked on anytime somebody wants something out of you. But if you can develop the reputation for being somebody that will bend over backwards to help, that, again, that can go a long way for you.
Ken Vogt:And don't you don't wanna develop the the reputation of being a doormat. Well, I can take advantage of them anytime I want. It's not like that. But when when someone realizes that you're that you're going out of your way for them, they realize they they start to realize, socially speaking, they they owe you one. You know?
Ken Vogt:They know they know that you you did something for them at a at an inconvenient moment for you. Well, guess what? Turnabout is fair play. You know? And it it gives you the opportunity to have, to have favors to call in as it were.
Ken Vogt:I don't I don't mean that in a, controlling way, but in, yeah, it's just good to know that I that you have a stable of people that you could call on when you need when you need support or help for whatever. Mhmm. Oh, definitely. Yeah.
Skye Marshall:Yeah. I was, I think this actually segues quite well into a question somebody has asked. Please. So I was what you were saying about people being there to help you at the time they need it, that is great for when you're in the same lab and you're maybe, colleagues basically that are there together. And that's why I imagine this situation is maybe someone's sort of coaching a colleague, but somebody's asked what's the difference between mentoring and coaching a colleague in the lab?
Skye Marshall:Like, is is it sort of helping out when someone has a technical problem, or can it be more, I guess?
Ken Vogt:Yeah. I to my mind, coaching and mentoring are are different things. A mentor is somebody who is sharing their experience. They've been there, done that. Right?
Ken Vogt:And maybe they know some shortcuts, maybe they they know the the cleanest way to get somewhere. A coach is something different. A coach is looking in from the outside. It's being another set of eyes on something. So you could think about it this way.
Ken Vogt:Serena Williams, you know, famous expert tennis player, possibly the best female player on the planet, has a coach. Her coach is a good tennis player. Her coach cannot beat her at tennis, but she doesn't need to be able to beat her at tennis to be her coach. So sometimes you're in a situation where somebody is just saying, I just need a sanity check. Could you could you check over this paper before I submit it just just to make sure I didn't miss something?
Ken Vogt:And you can do that. And you may not, maybe you couldn't have wrote that paper, but you can see if there's something missing or something is flawed or or something is out of context or needs context. So that's how I would describe the difference between a coach and a mentor. And in any given moment, you may be qualified to be a mentor for something, or or you might more appropriately be a coach in that setting. So, you know, do what is appropriate for, you know, what what you're capable of and and what the person needs.
Skye Marshall:So a mentor would be someone who's probably, for example, already done a PhD or maybe just someone who's already used that instrument.
Ken Vogt:Exactly. Exactly. So yeah. And and I think those are 2 really good examples. One of them is very big and broad, and the other is very specific.
Ken Vogt:So you could be mentored by somebody who does not have a PhD, but they know how to use the machine.
Skye Marshall:Okay. Yeah, I think that's a good differentiation. I'm wondering as well, does it go further into like probably both a mentor and a coach could do this, but presenting soft skills to them, you know, saying, by the way, watch out, you don't get burnt out because that's a common thing that happens to PhD students, something like that, instead of just saying, yeah, how to use the instrument.
Ken Vogt:Sure. Well, I mean, you can imagine a setting where you see somebody who's getting stressed and you can tell, and and you've been stressed in the past yourself. Maybe you can say, hey. Here's what I did when I got stressed that way. But maybe you can see their their stress is is different than yours was.
Ken Vogt:The only thing you that you really have share there is they were both feeling, you know, overworked or or out of your element, then then it's more appropriate to be in a kind of a coaching setting. And so you in a coaching situation, you're more asking questions rather than offering, you know, specific solutions, whereas a mentor is able to offer solutions because they know the solutions.
Skye Marshall:Mhmm. Okay. Okay. And it's probably, a lot of people are able to switch switch between the 2.
Ken Vogt:Sure. Yeah. And and don't cut yourself off from accepting mentorship or coaching from somebody who might you might think is is your inferior, and they might be. But, you know, sometimes the janitor in the lab knows stuff.
Skye Marshall:Yeah. That I mean, sometimes, as you were saying earlier, sometimes people have done 2 PhDs. It might be their second time around.
Ken Vogt:Yeah. And sometimes you just may not realize their experience. Maybe they maybe they've been they're quiet. Maybe they don't speak up all the time. But when they do, maybe you should be listening because they know what they're talking about.
Ken Vogt:This can this goes into one little point I wanted to make too. This is part of collaboration. Collaboration isn't always a formal arrangement where this person is assigned as my mentor, you know, or, you know, or this is the person I go to for coaching all the time. In the moment, you you find out what's working. And we're all on we all get on projects and we start to realize this project is it's got a lot of moving parts.
Ken Vogt:We need somebody to pick up this part, and maybe you can be that person or maybe somebody else should be that person or maybe you can help the person that does do it. Again, collaboration then provides you the opportunity to support others and to receive support. But if you're not collaborative yourself, if if you don't foster a collaborative environment, the opportunities for support get get restricted more and more until people are working their own little silos and and not working together. And for sure, you're not gonna get as much done. You're not gonna you're not gonna be as innovative.
Ken Vogt:You're certainly not gonna make discoveries if all you ever do is cut yourself off from from your fellow lab members. Mhmm.
Skye Marshall:So it's a bit like like you said earlier, make time to be a mentor. I mean, you could even just make time to be collaborative and
Ken Vogt:Right.
Skye Marshall:From that, like mentoring chances could arise, but either way, it's a good idea to make time to be collaborative.
Ken Vogt:And you may tell yourself, well, I can't make time. I just I don't have time to make.
Skye Marshall:That's not hard.
Ken Vogt:But that is I'm on this. Here's a challenging thought. That is just a belief. If you believe you can make time, you will be able to make time. And if you start thinking about your own experience in life, you've you will certainly find examples where that was true.
Ken Vogt:Sometimes it's like, well, I have to make time. You know? It's it's life and death maybe whether literally or not. When things are life or death, we find a way. We make time, or we're not here we're not here for the next time.
Ken Vogt:Right? No. You're not you're not alive. You're not gonna be on that job anymore. You know?
Ken Vogt:You figure it out. So sometimes we have to test out test out the limits that we believe are in place. Maybe they're not really there.
Skye Marshall:Yeah. Yeah. And maybe just starting small. You know, it doesn't have to be now you've become someone who is always around for other people.
Ken Vogt:Right. Right. Well yeah. And sometimes that you can't always be around for other people. You have things you have to do for you too.
Ken Vogt:You you can do things for yourself, you can do things for others, and some people think that that's the either or. It's not true. You you can do things for others and yourself. If if you develop a protocol that's useful and you record it and now other people can use that, but you benefited too because you figured out the protocol. It's and and now there's a protocol available to you.
Ken Vogt:Whether you did it or somebody else did isn't isn't really important at that moment. The fact is it's still available to you. It did just because others can use it doesn't mean you can't.
Skye Marshall:Yeah. Exactly. And it could just be I I don't know if you'd feel the pressure. If other people are gonna use this protocol, I better make it perfect, but actually it can make a huge difference just to have somebody else's rough draft of a protocol. Maybe they've already left the lab.
Skye Marshall:They're just looking for any sort of guidance and if you leave behind that, that sort of paper trail that could be really helpful for them and not, hopefully not too much extra time for yourself.
Ken Vogt:Exactly.
Skye Marshall:There's another question that's come through.
Ken Vogt:Oh, please.
Skye Marshall:Just to, interject. If, this person's asked, what if a person does not want to be helped?
Ken Vogt:Yeah. I mean, there's lots of reasons why somebody might not wanna be helped, that will have nothing to do with you or even with the work. You know, for if if they've if they feel like if I accept help, then I look weak, then I look I look unqualified. Yeah. That could be really hard for them.
Ken Vogt:So the first thing you can do in a setting like that, if you if you still believe that mentoring them is worth doing, the first thing you can do is just to soften up your approach, and and just just pull back a little bit. Maybe just ask questions. You don't have to give them answers. Just ask the question so they will seek the answer. Maybe they'll figure it out the answer for themselves, but or maybe they'll go, you know what?
Ken Vogt:Why don't you just tell me? You know? And, yes, you know, sometimes that kind of interaction could feel a little abrasive. But if we can thicken up our skin a little bit, we may find that, you know what, they're they're not they're not fighting against me. They're fighting against something else that that's inside them that has nothing to do with me, and that makes it easier.
Ken Vogt:Now there will be times when some people, like, they don't wanna be helped, that they're not open to being helped. We'll accept that truth that this person doesn't they don't want to be helped. Now you may look at in the broad the the bigger picture and go, that's a problem. Yeah. But is it your problem to solve?
Ken Vogt:It may be may be at that point, it's something that should be shared up the chain. Let let management deal with that. If they if they've assigned you to help somebody and they're resisting, you by all means, you should you should be talking to your boss about that. Look. Look.
Ken Vogt:I I'm open to doing this. I'm open to helping them, but they're not open to receiving. You gotta help me out here. And if you can do that without judgment, you know, like, they're look at them. They're arrogant.
Ken Vogt:They're, you know, they're all this and that. Like, doesn't matter. We're gonna deal with arrogant people. Boy, in smart people, especially, there are a lot of smart people that are arrogant. Get over it.
Ken Vogt:Yeah. That's how it is. And it doesn't mean they won't receive. It you you just have to maybe be a little more skilled. And to get more skilled, you have to have these experiences of, trying to do things when you're unskilled.
Ken Vogt:Mhmm. You may find as you get better at at the the broad job of mentorship that people are more receptive. It's it's amazing that people got more receptive. Yeah. Because you were easier to receive.
Ken Vogt:You know? So take some personal responsibility for that too and, you know, set the judgment aside. It's it's not worth it.
Skye Marshall:Right. It all comes back to actually, it's an opportunity for your own growth and Yeah. That you should embrace it. And there is, conscious decisions you can do to to help it work for everyone.
Ken Vogt:Definitely.
Skye Marshall:Yeah. I wish I had that, sort of perspective. You know?
Ken Vogt:Well, you can't say I wish I had it. You could say I I I wish I wish I had it in the past maybe, but there's nothing stopping you from having it right now for you can start anew. So this this does this question and your comments also lead to my final point. I think there's there's 3 different motifs that can be applied to mentoring. The first is teaching.
Ken Vogt:That is you're just conveying information. Right? The second is shepherding. That is you're helping them to to assimilate information and to guide them toward seeking the right information so that they're actually looking for it instead of just, you know, unwillingly receiving it. And the 3rd level, I will call it mirroring.
Ken Vogt:And when you're mirroring someone, you're just reflecting back to them what they're being. And you're and, again, you can only do mirroring without judgment. You you gotta be free of judgment. You just can't get there. But it is amazing what people can learn when they really see themselves and see what they do.
Ken Vogt:Do you realize what you're doing here right now? Do you do you see why you're having this problem? And by the way, you know, other people are not having this problem when they are are using this procedure. Do you see what happened? Did you see why, you know, I mean, there's examples of things like why why cleanliness really mattered in this particular setting?
Ken Vogt:Why you really had to have things clean and clear? Why you should be using this instrument rather than that instrument or this or this kit rather than that kit. That that is the most effective kind of of mentoring that you can you can have. But wherever the level you're at in any situation, you know, any any of those modes are useful. It's just they can get progressively more useful, and people will seek you out.
Ken Vogt:When people seek you out as a mentor, your reputation goes up, and reputation is very important in the field of science, in your individual lab. If you have a reputation of somebody who knows what they're doing, who gets things done, who's got insight, that's who's got creativity, that that is steroids for your career. So it's all good for you. So if you're thinking, I don't wanna have to guide these sheep. You know what?
Ken Vogt:Do it anyway. It's worth it. And at at some point, you may recognize, you know, actually, this this is a more fun part of of my job than I ever realized it would be. You might not even thought there was such a a position before, but now that you know about it, you know, get out there and and be the best mentor you can be.
Skye Marshall:Yeah. I was thinking that of my experience of, times where I've been mentored, I just wonder if they understand the actual difference they made to me and how I'll be forever appreciative. I'll always remember. And I don't know if I'm ever in a situation where I could be of help to these people, I would I would jump at it.
Ken Vogt:Exactly. Exactly. Alright. Well, that's that's everything I had to say today. Is there anything else you wanted to add, Skye?
Skye Marshall:Okay. No. I don't think so. That was great.
Ken Vogt:Well, thank you so much for, for cohosting with me today. It's always it's it's always great to to get input from from a new voice and somebody who's got a different different, perspective on things.
Skye Marshall:Alright. Well, yeah. Thank you for putting everything into words, all these perspective and thoughts that takes years actually to figure out sometimes.
Ken Vogt:Sometimes.
Skye Marshall:Yeah. Excellent. So we've reached the end of our time today. Thank you for your insights Ken and thank you to the audience for listening in, for contributing questions, and for listening live or on demand. So if you enjoyed this content, please subscribe to The Happy Scientists on your favorite podcast platform or YouTube.
Skye Marshall:Listen back to our earlier episodes, which are packed with equally useful wisdom. And of course tell your colleagues so we can help spread the happy scientists. Also look out for more live happy scientists episodes in the coming months. You can find them listed on events.bitesizebio.com And then until then, good luck with your research, and goodbye from all of us at Bite Size Bio.
Ken Vogt:Bye.
VX:The Happy Scientist is brought to you by Bite Size Bio, your mentor in the lab. Bite Size Bio features thousands of articles and webinars contributed by hundreds of PhD scientists and scientific companies who freely offer their hard won wisdom and solutions to the bite sized bio community.
